Lose Lose Economy

[Dieval]

1) 52 weeks work, 40 hours a week at 7.25 for minimum wage = 15,080.00 a year. His calculation was not that far off.

I guess you don't have far to fall when you aim for the bottom. Interesting and noteworthy.

2) If he goes part time, he has to live for 6 or 8 years (or more) working for lower wages, accruing earning potential losses. Just like you end up maximzing advantages by paying a house or a car off faster, you maximixe advantage by finishing school faster.

And? Do you run out and buy things you can't afford?

3) Most associates/technical degrees have become close to useless. You pay someone to train you to do jobs that get classified as "para-professional", and their pay rates suck. He would pay someone to NOT significantly increase his own earning potential. I literally know at least 10 people who paid for medical certifications who make pretty much the same wages as people who didn't bother.

It was probably a poor choice by the 10 people you know to get "medical certification". Beyond that I know for a fact that trade/technical schools teach you what is needed to get a job (and they generally help you find one) and in some respects are vastly more efficient than 4 year schools.

4) Good luck getting the necessary loans to start a business if you don't already make more than a living wage. Banks don't tend to loan money to people because they are smart and charming.

I didn't say to buy a skyscraper and a warehouse when opening your business...how about a hot dog cart? computer repair? painting? hole digger? There are any number of businesses that can be started that don't require a "necessary loan".

5) Nothing wrong with joining the military to serve, learn a trade or whatever, but it isn't like it is a plan that the multitudes can take advantage of...the military does not need THAT many folks.

Has he tried?

3) Do you think trade school is free?

3? O.o
Not at all, but it's significantly cheaper than going to a 4 year school.

[minorwork]

Coming from a capitalist.....

A realist.

[Winter wind]

I find it very weird that I'm siding more with the capitalists this time.

Communism is an economic system built around a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community.
...
Though in a communistic society, without currency, being a doctor, doing what you are capable of doing guarantees you all your needs.

It's private ownership that keeps me liberal and not a communist. I like owning my laptop. I like being an individual. I don't always like the community around me, so sometimes I don't really want to give the community around me the right to own what I believe is my stuff. I mean, for example, I'm bisexual. If I lived in Kentucky and the community decided that gay people don't need a computer, but rather some church paster does, I'm screwed. Now, maybe in a classless society, that won't happen, but I don't trust that people become classless just because we tell them to be classless. Can you see the south becoming religiously classless just because a law was passed? What about Muslims in Israel or Jews in Iran? Maybe I'm cynical, but I rarely trust groups to make good decisions. Hitler was elected by a democracy and Mao had huge popular support when he had power.

Home, food, and the same luxuries as everyone else, so long as you put into the society it will give back.

This is, theoretically at least, the point of money. Money is supposed to be the reward for putting into society. It might not be absolutely true in practice, but I don't see a theoretical difference. You provide to the community via a job. As a reward, you get money with which you get a home, food and luxuries.

Someone would say no one would want to do such a job without payment. Surely this is not emotionally true, someone has to desire the knowledge and satisfaction the job brings.
...
People can do the jobs they desire and while contributing to society.

Perhaps it's a property of the free-market, but I know many people who would not work unless given a reward. I know a lot of people who hate their job and would much rather be doing something else. Maybe in a Communist system of government people will be able to decide what they do for a living so they'd do what they love (assuming most people have a burning passion in life). But in that case, I think we'd see an overabundance of game designers, wine tasters, and movie stars, and many fewer garbage collectors, and honestly, we need more garbage collectors than wine tasters.

The other possibility is to have someone or some group in government decide who does what for a living in order to make sure all of society's needs are met. In that case the individual (me and you) loses the ability to choose his/her own destiny which is extremely unpalatable to me. I like being able to choose to go into computer science and software engineering rather than be a postman or something like that.

Some think in a communistic society everyone would be in cookie cutter houses wearing grey prison garb. This would be untrue housing would be based on the need of the person(s) and there is plenty of clothing to pick from

I think one of the main arguments against Communism, as a whole, is: if someone who doesn't like their job (making shirts) and/or doesn't have a passion for it is getting paid the the same to make a shirt, no matter the color, they would go for the easiest color to make. I like a society that rewards people for trying harder, a society that rewards people for going the extra mile. In capitalism, it may not be true in the USA, but it's at least true in theory. In Communism, it's not even true on a theory level, how could it be true in practice.

Some think luxuries like televisions and games would not count to the "need" mentioned, and they don’t but when everyone is working, such luxuries can be provided to everyone. As I said however either everyone is in or no one is, sure a few that don’t want to work would need to be excluded from the whole.

But what if not everyone wants tv and games? My grandparents would much rather have Churchill biographies and a copy of the New York Times, and my sixteen year old cousin would much rather have a car. How do we decide who should get what luxuries? Coupons? Money? Or will we give my grandmother "Bioshock"?

As I said however either everyone is in or no one is, sure a few that don’t want to work would need to be excluded from the whole.

What if they don't work as much as other people? What if the air traffic controller comes to work drunk? Is there a cut off point? Will everyone race to work exactly at that point and no more?

In today's society, understanding how a system works means understanding how rewards work. Police officers get promoted based on arrests so we see more drug busts than methodical, time consuming case work on homicides. Schools get government money based on how well students do on standardized tests. So teachers teach to the test regardless if they think the information helps the students. Communism rewards doing exactly the bare minimum and no more, so I think the people will do exactly that.

in the world communism is used as a government when it is not. communism is the idea of the people for the people where the only thing is the people. communism is just this, the abolition of currency and the building off of the premise; from each according to their ability to each according to their need.

A facet of Communism is political. It's the enforcement of the idea, and I don't see a senario where Communism becomes a reality without some government dictating the laws that support the Communist country.

I like the spirit behind Communism. I like the idea of everyone being able to have a house and a car and a job. I like the idea of everyone being equal (or at least starting that way). I just see these flaws in the system which would lead to Communism degenerating and failing in practice.

[Charlatan]

I suggest the best way out is to only study on weekends. This will leave you time to work.

You need to work a flexible schedule so that you will be of value to your business. After that, you could study after hours. Why not do distance learning, then you could do all your school work on weekends and then be able to apply yourself at your job? The classes take time from you, as you are not studying but rather being educated in the best way to understand the material. The best way out would not to be doing this practical education, but rather just memorising it as best you can, and then your time will be better managed, and you will be able to work properly, sleep and have more money to live on.

[Winter wind]

So it seems like there is no "right" way to approach this problem, get more money now do terrible in school and work those two jobs your whole life. Place precedents on school and you will not have enough money to survive unless you bury yourself in debt. Worse for wear you can loose your job because you cannot work a flexible schedule due to your classes , like I have, so that even the loans wont cover living... It makes no sense to have a lose lose system.

I totally forgot your original question. Now I'm the ass >.>.

Anyway, having a school and a teacher is optimal, but if you really can't afford it, see if you can buy or borrow the textbooks used in the classes. It's not quite the same, but if you can read a chapter or two from each text book each week and do the questions related to the chapters, it's sometimes as good as taking the class (more often than not, professors are really bad at teaching). It requires more discipline because you no longer have a due date, but it might be enough.

What exactly do you want to do with the education?

(Of course, if you want the diploma, you'll have to pay).

[Dan74]

I find it very weird that I'm siding more with the capitalists this time.



It's private ownership that keeps me liberal and not a communist. I like owning my laptop. I like being an individual. I don't always like the community around me, so sometimes I don't really want to give the community around me the right to own what I believe is my stuff. I mean, for example, I'm bisexual. If I lived in Kentucky and the community decided that gay people don't need a computer, but rather some church paster does, I'm screwed. Now, maybe in a classless society, that won't happen, but I don't trust that people become classless just because we tell them to be classless. Can you see the south becoming religiously classless just because a law was passed? What about Muslims in Israel or Jews in Iran? Maybe I'm cynical, but I rarely trust groups to make good decisions. Hitler was elected by a democracy and Mao had huge popular support when he had power.

One of the common misconceptions about communism. Abolition of private property does not mean abolition of personal property. We want to abolish private property because we're sick and tired of the bourgeoisie using it as an excuse to exploit people's labor. You can still retain ownership over your laptop or whatever, as it is not a device for exploitation.

Perhaps it's a property of the free-market, but I know many people who would not work unless given a reward. I know a lot of people who hate their job and would much rather be doing something else. Maybe in a Communist system of government people will be able to decide what they do for a living so they'd do what they love (assuming most people have a burning passion in life). But in that case, I think we'd see an overabundance of game designers, wine tasters, and movie stars, and many fewer garbage collectors, and honestly, we need more garbage collectors than wine tasters.

I think people would realize that they can't have any job they want. Colleges will (hopefully) still exist and be completely free to attend, so someone can learn to be an engineer if they don't want to make t-shirts. Neither job will gain them societal privilege over anyone else.

The other possibility is to have someone or some group in government decide who does what for a living in order to make sure all of society's needs are met. In that case the individual (me and you) loses the ability to choose his/her own destiny which is extremely unpalatable to me. I like being able to choose to go into computer science and software engineering rather than be a postman or something like that.

A fair point. This sounds similar to what happened in the Soviet Union, where Party bureaucrats became the bosses of the old world.

I think one of the main arguments against Communism, as a whole, is: if someone who doesn't like their job (making shirts) and/or doesn't have a passion for it is getting paid the the same to make a shirt, no matter the color, they would go for the easiest color to make. I like a society that rewards people for trying harder, a society that rewards people for going the extra mile. In capitalism, it may not be true in the USA, but it's at least true in theory. In Communism, it's not even true on a theory level, how could it be true in practice.

But there is no money in an ideal communist society. There shouldn't even be money in a socialist society.

Communism rewards doing exactly the bare minimum and no more, so I think the people will do exactly that.

Where did you get this from?

A facet of Communism is political. It's the enforcement of the idea, and I don't see a senario where Communism becomes a reality without some government dictating the laws that support the Communist country.

Well, yeah, that's a belief espoused by most communists and it's a central tenant of Marxism.

I like the spirit behind Communism. I like the idea of everyone being able to have a house and a car and a job. I like the idea of everyone being equal (or at least starting that way). I just see these flaws in the system which would lead to Communism degenerating and failing in practice.

Well, I don't know about your capitalism. To me it looks like all of the major capitalist countries are going straight to hell.

[Void Serpent]

I guess you don't have far to fall when you aim for the bottom. Interesting and noteworthy.

You forget taxes which dropped me to 10,923 on my W-2, now the true 15% from that 15,000 takes me down to 12,750. Based on all that my 12,000 is reasonable.

This is, theoretically at least, the point of money. Money is supposed to be the reward for putting into society. It might not be absolutely true in practice, but I don't see a theoretical difference. You provide to the community via a job. As a reward, you get money with which you get a home, food and luxuries.

but as i pointed out even two jobs would be enough for needs, i listed only a few things of what i need to pay monthly and was left with $100 and no more hours in the day to work. money is a poor reward and does not allow for proper living, it is also fickle if our declining economy is any indication.

But what if not everyone wants tv and games? My grandparents would much rather have Churchill biographies and a copy of the New York Times, and my sixteen year old cousin would much rather have a car. How do we decide who should get what luxuries? Coupons? Money? Or will we give my grandmother "Bioshock"?

To each according to their need, your grandparents are not going to go to a distributor for bioshock which means the demand/need of bioshock product is going to be lessened by 2. Everyone would be getting any luxury they ask for to fit their need and the production, which production will increase in all fields due to the increase of employment since money is no longer a constraint.

What if they don't work as much as other people? What if the air traffic controller comes to work drunk? Is there a cut off point? Will everyone race to work exactly at that point and no more?
In today's society, understanding how a system works means understanding how rewards work. Police officers get promoted based on arrests so we see more drug busts than methodical, time consuming case work on homicides. Schools get government money based on how well students do on standardized tests. So teachers teach to the test regardless if they think the information helps the students. Communism rewards doing exactly the bare minimum and no more, so I think the people will do exactly that.

longer hour jobs in some cases are because of insufficient man power, some of the one that aren't are also less physically intensive. if you add and subtract and consider hours, labor, conditions and other factors most jobs fall on level ground where only the person doing it could do it and someone in another field couldn't fathom doing it and vice versa. If someone is always drunk on the job they fall out of society into the people that cant or wont participate. Now this does not necessarily count the mentally disabled, my mother is mentally disabled and works in a factory with others worse than herself boxing car parts, cleaning, packaging shipping orders and more so they can work and be cared for too.

As for minimum stuff, seems like that is all people do anyways because we really do get the minimum back no matter how hard we work. Here i am, i was a model employee the hours i could work during school semesters never got a raise and eventually got let go even though i pulled the team whenever i worked. in a communist economy setup the way i propose and not like Marxist Russia people would go to jobs they liked doing and do their best at it knowing they have no financial problems, they have food shelter and comforts why not do all you can to keep that?

And? Do you run out and buy things you can't afford?

no, no cable only internet for school. never eat out, ride a bicycle to class. havent bought new cloths in 5yrs, exception on socks and underwear, same shoes i used for track in high school. never go to the doctor last time i did it was a $1,000 to conclude that maybe i have hemorrhoids but i need another $600 test to confirm. I live on the bare minimum.

Why do you have to be a full time student now?
Have you looked in to a trade school?
How about starting your own business?
Grants? Loans?
Why not join the military and get life experience, job training, and college paid for?

lsbskins1 hit most of what i would say to these. as for why now it is now that i so get the grants and loans and i want to start my life now not when i am 40. those grants and loans though do not cover it all and leave me in debt with still expenses that need to be paid to the school. I am a physics major and idk what business i could do other than i feel i am a decent baker but that is at home, who wants to buy a delicious but not perfectly smooth cheesecake?

I am not against the military as in having one, but it is bullshit that a tax payer would have to serve to obtain an education, i should be paying my taxes to get the education i desire without selling my life to the military. That is another debate though if military spending is appropriate or not.

A realist.

I agree my Communist economy is a theoretical dream. However capitalism is the result of minimum effort. the system is easy to adjust to and keep "fair" when all you need to say is "they don't work hard enough, that is why they died of starvation in their car, three jobs just isn't enough". mild exaggeration yes, but not far from the future, a lot of non students i know have two jobs and few have three just to keep their house/apartment and support a family/them self. The communist system would be complex with rules, sub rules, exceptions, circumstances, and requirements but the end result is an improved world with higher quality in all aspects of life.

[lsbskins1]

I suggest the best way out is to only study on weekends. This will leave you time to work.

You need to work a flexible schedule so that you will be of value to your business. After that, you could study after hours. Why not do distance learning, then you could do all your school work on weekends and then be able to apply yourself at your job? The classes take time from you, as you are not studying but rather being educated in the best way to understand the material. The best way out would not to be doing this practical education, but rather just memorising it as best you can, and then your time will be better managed, and you will be able to work properly, sleep and have more money to live on.

Being a full time student, living this life, I would just like to say that some of you folks have some very inaccurate views about what is feasible. In the two years I have been in school, I took jobs with employers who knew, because I told them during the interview process, that I was a full time student and that once my school schedule was set, it was set and I could not alter it. Both agreed and hired me...and then ended up "changing the rules". The problem is not that I am not flexible, the problem is that professors sure as shit are not and neither are the employers...unless by flexible you mean the employers are willing to be inflexible in completely random and ever changing ways.

[Dieval]

You forget taxes which dropped me to 10,923 on my W-2, now the true 15% from that 15,000 takes me down to 12,750. Based on all that my 12,000 is reasonable.

My point was that you're obviously at a minimum wage job. Have you tried for anything that pays better? Have you looked in to your own business?

no, no cable only internet for school. never eat out, ride a bicycle to class. havent bought new cloths in 5yrs, exception on socks and underwear, same shoes i used for track in high school. never go to the doctor last time i did it was a $1,000 to conclude that maybe i have hemorrhoids but i need another $600 test to confirm. I live on the bare minimum.

My point was that if you can't afford school now, why are you rushing to it now?

lsbskins1 hit most of what i would say to these.

I responded to her responses..

as for why now it is now that i so get the grants and loans

I didn't realize there was an age limit on grants and loans....?

and i want to start my life now not when i am 40.

If you really think that starting your life involves going to college this very minute, you're in for a rude awakening..

those grants and loans though do not cover it all and leave me in debt with still expenses that need to be paid to the school. I am a physics major and idk what business i could do other than i feel i am a decent baker but that is at home, who wants to buy a delicious but not perfectly smooth cheesecake?

I love cheesecake and with practice, I'm sure you could get it perfectly smooth...
I don't know much about you, other than you're a "physics major"... if you're going to be a physicist then you're obviously bright and I'm sure you can come up with something you can do to make extra income.

I am not against the military as in having one, but it is bullshit that a tax payer would have to serve to obtain an education

higher education...and why is serving your country "bullshit"?

, i should be paying my taxes to get the education i desire without selling my life to the military. That is another debate though if military spending is appropriate or not.

You paid $2250 in taxes (and probably got all of that back plus more at the end of the year)....why do you think that should cover your education costs?

I agree my Communist economy is a theoretical dream. However capitalism is the result of minimum effort. the system is easy to adjust to and keep "fair" when all you need to say is "they don't work hard enough, that is why they died of starvation in their car, three jobs just isn't enough". mild exaggeration yes, but not far from the future, a lot of non students i know have two jobs and few have three just to keep their house/apartment and support a family/them self. The communist system would be complex with rules, sub rules, exceptions, circumstances, and requirements but the end result is an improved world with higher quality in all aspects of life.

You really think that "capitalism is the result of minimum effort"? Wouldn't your idealistic communism solution, which would provide everything for you, be true "minimum effort"?

[BobbyO]

One of the common misconceptions about communism. Abolition of private property does not mean abolition of personal property. We want to abolish private property because we're sick and tired of the bourgeoisie using it as an excuse to exploit people's labor. You can still retain ownership over your laptop or whatever, as it is not a device for exploitation.

One of the common misconceptions of communism, by communists. The reality is that "personal property" becomes the property of all. Since production is geared for "need" in the communist community, people have to justify their personal possessions, and their "need" for more, to the local bureaucrats, especially if money no longer exists.

I think people would realize that they can't have any job they want.

You would think that...but... in such an absence systems and mechanisms would need to exist to determine whether he community in fact needed more engineers versus t-shirt designers.

A fair point. This sounds similar to what happened in the Soviet Union, where Party bureaucrats became the bosses of the old world.

They became the "bosses" of the new world. The USSR represented the logical application of socialism.

[Winter wind]

One of the common misconceptions about communism. Abolition of private property does not mean abolition of personal property. We want to abolish private property because we're sick and tired of the bourgeoisie using it as an excuse to exploit people's labor. You can still retain ownership over your laptop or whatever, as it is not a device for exploitation.

Ok. That was my bad. So this is basically the abolition of private ownership of means of production (factories, companies, etc).

The USA tends to suck at government run things. This is not true of every country. I've lived in Hong Kong where public health care worked very well and compared very nicely with private health care (It wasn't completely free. There was a 10$ fee for non-life-threatening walk-ins). The public subway system was so clean you could eat food off the floor. Even getting my ID was relatively quick and efficient. I don't know why the USA does so poorly at government run things. The postal service is going under, public education is a national sinkhole, and I'm more likely to see a UFO in my life time than a Social Security check. I'd be way more confident if some of these programs weren't so bad compared to both their private and overseas counterparts.

I think people would realize that they can't have any job they want. Colleges will (hopefully) still exist and be completely free to attend, so someone can learn to be an engineer if they don't want to make t-shirts. Neither job will gain them societal privilege over anyone else.

People may realize that they can't have any job they want, but this is their livelihood. If there's even a sliver of a chance they would get to do something they love, even if there are millions of people already doing it, I don't think they will give up that dream for the good of the country. Again, this might be just because we live in a country that promotes the individual over the society to some degree. Maybe if the culture shifted to emphasize society more, it would be more likely. Either way I don't think we'll see a line going around the block for people signing up to be garbage collectors. Not in a Communist or Capitalist society. Why do that when you can make t-shirts for a living?

Where did you get this from?

In China during the 70s, people realized: They get paid the same for showing up to work and watching soap operas as they did for showing up to work and doing their job. The managers couldn't fire these people without contacting x, y and z people and why bother? They were getting paid the same no matter how well their factory does. If you don't have some system of rewarding someone based on how well they do, I don't think people will try harder than they have to.

[Winter wind]

but as i pointed out even two jobs would be enough for needs, i listed only a few things of what i need to pay monthly and was left with $100 and no more hours in the day to work. money is a poor reward and does not allow for proper living, it is also fickle if our declining economy is any indication.

Ok, so the issue you have with money is it's lower purchasing power, or at least it's fickle purchasing power. I mean, if you could get an apartment on the Upper East Side of Manhattan for a dollar, then I'd imagine you'd be more content.

So if the dollar's purchasing power was fixed, would that be acceptable?

To each according to their need, your grandparents are not going to go to a distributor for bioshock which means the demand/need of bioshock product is going to be lessened by 2. Everyone would be getting any luxury they ask for to fit their need and the production, which production will increase in all fields due to the increase of employment since money is no longer a constraint.

Do my grandparents get anything extra for not getting a copy of bioshock? Or does everyone get a luxury item except for them?

As for minimum stuff, seems like that is all people do anyways because we really do get the minimum back no matter how hard we work. Here i am, i was a model employee the hours i could work during school semesters never got a raise and eventually got let go even though i pulled the team whenever i worked.

And I hate that. I hate it when companies, groups, anyone really doesn't recognize or reward competence. Communism, as a theory, does not give extra to anyone who works harder or does better. Capitalism is, at least, supposed to do that in theory because companies want the most talented people working for them because it's good for business.

in a communist economy setup the way i propose and not like Marxist Russia people would go to jobs they liked doing and do their best at it knowing they have no financial problems, they have food shelter and comforts why not do all you can to keep that?

Again, I don't think there will be enough people who "like" working with solid waste. Society will need more people being garbage collectors than will volunteer. Given that I don't see how everyone can do the jobs they want to do (I mean, the number of people who want to be movie directors, by itself, is staggering), I don't see how everyone will like what they are doing. Either way, I'd rather the person doing his job with pride get rewarded over the person who waiting for 5pm to come.