Washed and Waiting - the story of a gay Christian

[theophilus]

I just want to get you on the record as saying that god actually makes people who are born gay, and that being gay is not a choice.

Would you agree on those two points? Im not trying to set you up, i just want to have a professed christian that agrees on those two points say just that.

Being gay isn't a choice, just as being straight isn't a choice. But whether you engage in sexual activity and the kind of activity you engage is is a choice.

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/relig...gel-light.html

God makes the people who are born gay but he doesn't make them gay. The entire human race has been affected by sin. That is why all of us suffer physical and mental impairments and all of us eventually die. For some people the normal sexual desire that God created doesn't function as it should and they find themselves sexually attracted to others of the same sex.

"reparative therapies" are a load of crap.

The people who have been helped by those therapies don't think that. The existence of organizations whose purpose is to help ex-gays shows that it is possible for some people to change their sexual orientation.

http://pfox.org/default.html

[Jack]

The people who have been helped by those therapies don't think that.

I won't check out that link (pfox) as the Web of Trust gives it a "Poor" rating for security. Can you provide testimonies from credible sources that back up your claim?

http://jgford.homestead.com/Fordessay.html
http://www.thetaskforce.org/download...ngingExGay.pdf
http://www.salon.com/2005/07/19/gaytherapy/singleton/
http://www.fresnostate.edu/studentor...impossible.htm

[Questatement]

Nope, which is why psychology isn't science and "reparative therapies" are a load of crap.

It almost sound like you are saying x criteria can determine that reparative therapy is useless but that same criteria can't be used to determine its effectiveness?

If so, you win unless I pull the same crap, then I win, or... would that be a tie?

[Jack]

It almost sound like you are saying x criteria can determine that reparative therapy is useless but that same criteria can't be used to determine its effectiveness?

Not at all. You're more than welcome to provide scientific research that supports reparative therapy.

[Questatement]

Not at all. You're more than welcome to provide scientific research that supports reparative therapy.

Okay, since neither of us has 'scientifically monitored double-blind experiments with repeatable results,' I will ask again... please define or qualify the closest thing to the 'conclusive documentation' that you will accept.

[Jack]

...since neither of us has 'scientifically monitored double-blind experiments with repeatable results...

Because, as I said before, psychology is not a science, at least not as rigorous a science as biology or geology. Still, even the preponderance of anecdotal evidence tells me that this therapy is ineffective and potentially hazardous.

[Questatement]

If, as an individual, I was looking to determine if reparative therapy had a chance, I would first seek out those who claim to have been through successful therapy themselves. Then, if/when I found someone who I believed was genuine, I would follow the path they took. Address the same issues and/or use the same therapist.

After all, I am one individual just like them. Averages the opponents mantra of 'most don't work' are irrelevant.

Also, if you haven't picked it up yet, hidden in that mantra is the confession that some do succeed at it.

[Apeman81]

Reparative Therapy? Choosing celibacy over desire? Choosing not to perform every form of sexual act you may be enticed to do?

I wonder why anyone would have so strong an aversion to any of these?

How many times have I heard "who would choose to be gay?" And here, we see contention with the idea that some might choose not to be. That some might instead resist some or even all their sexual desires in order to "choose not to be gay".

I do not understand the confrontation.

[Questatement]

I do not understand the confrontation.

It's simple. If there is any choice in the matter and God is real, there are consequences for the one making the wrong choice.

If SSA is 'from birth, natural, immutable, and must be acted upon,' then the individual doing so is not accountable to God should God exist in his stated form as judge of all the earth.

Hence, one desiring to be unaccountable to God will argue for the 'big 4' listed above and against any who challenge them.

[Apeman81]

It's simple. If there is any choice in the matter and God is real, there are consequences for the one making the wrong choice.

If SSA is 'from birth, natural, immutable, and must be acted upon,' then the individual doing so is not accountable to God should God exist in his stated form as judge of all the earth.

Hence, one desiring to be unaccountable to God will argue for the 'big 4' listed above and against any who challenge them.

I understand why some would advance the argument you outline in defense of self. Incredibly interesting that some would hedge against the punishment of a god they do not believe exists.

Of course, the "big 4" is a very silly concept in and of itself. No desire must be acted upon. (Please, let's not play the infantile "what about the desire to eat" game. I said desire, not need.)

Yet, even an adherence to such a claim being necessary to "justify" their actions, why not simply suggest that anyone who can be turned is able to do so because their desire was fleeting instead or railing against the ability to control one's urges?

[Jack]

Also, if you haven't picked it up yet, hidden in that mantra is the confession that some do succeed at it.

All you'd be able to establish is a change in behavior, not orientation. Ask anyone who has overcome alcoholism. They'll tell you they're still alcoholics, an alcoholic doesn't cease being an alcoholic. They change their behaviors, learn how to resist the urge to drink. Alcoholics aren't cured of their alcoholism, they learn how to resist drinking. Sure, you can teach a homosexual to resist the urge to engage in sexual behavior, but from what I've read all claims that homosexuality can be cured are false. Of course that's enough for the anti-gay Christians who seem fixated on behavior and quite about orientation.