God is ultimately responsible

[truthreality]

By denying its existence?

No by abstaining from it.

You are free to believe so.

Name one important concept of Christianity that is not existent in other religions.

[Chris the Chees]

You are free to believe that. enjoy!

It isn't a belief; it is a strict logical inference. If God is omnicient, then human actions and beliefs are predestined. If they are predestined, then there is no real choice. It is how we have been made.

[Apeman81]

I'm sorry to be such a butt head. I do like you. I understand that you really have no choice but to disagree if you don't wish to question your faith. God knows, there are many christians who need their faith.

Before I depart this world I just want to cure one theist. Is that asking so much?

I question my faith constantly. In finding the answers to my questions, I gain in knowledge and increase in faith.

We simply, and I believe, honestly disagree concerning the gun to head analogy.

The assertion that God provides an ultimatum is nothing foreign to me. His creation, his rules.

That same logic extends to "nature". I can't fly. If I fall from a high place, the ground will brake my fall. Am I to rail against my limitation and refuse to believe in nature because I don't agree with the rules?

By the way, are you so certain that your way is the cure?

[Apeman81]

It isn't a belief; it is a strict logical inference. If God is omnicient, then human actions and beliefs are predestined. If they are predestined, then there is no real choice. It is how we have been made.

Were I capable of seeing past, present and future all at once, and you could not, and I saw you make a choice before you were aware of making it, does my knowledge of your choice negate the thoughts and reasoning you employ at the time of the choice? You made the choice, I merely observed it

You make the choice.

[Peter]

His creation, his rules.

Oooooh, I hate that one. It's the ultimate cop out. "Hey, why shouldn't god be able to do anything he wants to you because he made you don't you know!"

You do realize we're debating the very existence of this god thing? You can't just assume his existence as an argument for his psychopathic behavior. Anyway, you made your kids, assuming you have kids. Do you have the right to punish them for eternity?

By the way, are you so certain that your way is the cure?

Yep, pretty sure.

[Chris the Chees]

Were I capable of seeing past, present and future all at once, and you could not, and I saw you make a choice before you were aware of making it, does my knowledge of your choice negate the thoughts and reasoning you employ at the time of the choice? You made the choice, I merely observed it

You make the choice.

Well, that depends on whether your omnicience is mantched by omnipotence and the creation of humanity and the rest of the universe - including time. If God knows everything, because he created everything, then that includes the future and with it human actions. Thus God predestined the fate of men, who will believe in God and go to heaven and who will fall short. And indeed, the Bible tells us so:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Romans 9:14-22

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

and:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Maybe you should try reading the book?

[Apeman81]

Peter;876421]Oooooh, I hate that one. It's the ultimate cop out. "Hey, why shouldn't god be able to do anything he wants to you because he made you don't you know!"

You do realize we're debating the very existence of this god thing? You can't just assume his existence as an argument for his psychopathic behavior. Anyway, you made your kids, assuming you have kids. Do you have the right to punish them for eternity?

I have no ability punish them for eternity. Thus the question of "right" is made moot.

Yep, pretty sure.

Pretty sure? Thus there is hope for you yet? (could not resist)

Truly, you are free to believe as you choose. We don't, at this time agree on this point. Nor need we to coexist respectfully.

I will answer as best I can any question you care to earnestly ask.

[Apeman81]

Well, that depends on whether your omnicience is mantched by omnipotence and the creation of humanity and the rest of the universe - including time. If God knows everything, because he created everything, then that includes the future and with it human actions. Thus God predestined the fate of men, who will believe in God and go to heaven and who will fall short. And indeed, the Bible tells us so:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Romans 9:14-22

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

and:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Maybe you should try reading the book?

Golly, it never occurred to me read the book.

God indeed did "raise up" pharaoh. God knew what choices pharaoh would make. That does require God to force pharaoh to make them.

As for "harden", you do understand that God "hardens" the heart of one who has time and again, through his actions and thoughts, denies God. The "hardening" refers to the loss of the ability to have a "change of heart" concerning one's choice not to follow God.

[truthreality]

I will answer as best I can any question you care to earnestly ask.

How do I develop a relationship with Jesus? What is like? How come he relies on you to represent him?

[Peter]

I have no ability punish them for eternity. Thus the question of "right" is made moot.

?? I know you don't have the power to punish them forever. It's a hypothetical question. I'm sure you can answer all kinds of hypothetical questions so why not this one?

I figured you'd just say that god made them. Wanna change your answer?

I know, I'm just maddening aren't I!

Pretty sure? Thus there is hope for you yet? (could not resist)

Hope? Have you ever heard about the snowball in hell?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

By denying its existence?



Agreed then?



Best ask them. For some it appears to be an unwillingness to admit to a higher being of any form. Others so desire to act without limits that they refuse to follow anything that has them. Others deny heaven, hell, god or live after death.

The one that remains constant is that whatever you choose, you chose.



You are free to believe so.

You keep making the allusion to belief being a choice. Either one is convinced or one is not. There is no choice involved

[xx_mortekai_xx]

You cannot completely avoid sin.

You can completely avoid hell.

That you choose not too is your choice.

You do not agree with me concerning God and his teachings. So be it. Is it not good enough for you that we have differing views?

Do you desire some outcome from this exchange?

I am happy to answer questions about my belief, as long the questioner has a true desire to understand. You do not. Enjoy.

If one is unable to avoid sin, then how are we making a choice about it?

Oh, right. We have to "choose" to pay the vig. If we dont, we go to hell.

And you havent actually answered any questions, and, in fact, have done everything you can to sidestep them.