Marines fight to protect crosses at Camp Pendleton as atheist groups seek removal

[Apeman81]

Marines fight to protect crosses at Camp Pendleton as atheist groups seek removal | Fox News

Planted atop a remote hill in the middle of California's Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base rests two 13-foot crosses.
Originally erected back in 2003 by seven Marines grieving over lives lost in the war on terror, this site originally established for reflection has now become grounds for controversy.
“It's not a religious spot at all, it's a place for the Marines to grieve and to grow to let go of their burdens of what they had in their soul, so they can go back down that hill and back into battle and put their own lives on the line,” says Marine widow Karen Mendoza.
Her husband Ray was one of those original seven who climbed the hill that day, three of whom have since been killed in action, including Ray.
“It's a symbol of sacrifice regardless of what you think, pray, like or don't like,” says Karen.

But the area has become controversial and more known after a newspaper report last fall detailed the location and posted a picture. In response, several groups filed complaints with Marines arguing the site violated the Constitutional mandate of separation of church and state, including the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers or MAAF. They want the crosses moved to a church on private land and flags or some other symbol used instead to mark the site.
"This Christian crosses need to go to a private Christian instillation and we need to stick to things that honor everyone equally and maintain neutrality towards government," says association president Jason Torpy.

Someone please explain to me the meaning of the word "tolerance" in this case?

[arX]

A wildfire destroyed the original cross a few years back,

Apparently even god believes in separation of church and state.

[Yarn]

So sell the small plots of land on which the crosses are stationed to a private safekeeper. Regardless of whether religuous imagery is allowed on state property, you are allowed to see it from state property. I mean, if a church is across the street from a post office, nobody cares. I certainly won't.

Personally, I think when you have the 10 commandments in a courtroom that is abominable, especially since I read all of the horrible stuff in the Old Testament, but crosses for gravestones? Knock yourself out.

[hensatri]

"It's a symbol of sacrifice regardless of what you think, pray, like or don't like,” says Karen.

Then why is the location crowned by christian-specific imagry? This is a BS response. If she really understood the site to be a secular place of reflection and remembrance then she would be fine with the idea of US Flags rather than Crosses.

"Tolerance" in this case translates to "Accept our assumed ownership of America and don't rock the boat."

[ruksak]

Crosses, much like the holiday of Christmas, have transcended their religious bounds. I am best described as agnostic. I abhor religion. Yet I celebrate Christmas as a family holiday.

Crosses represent death. Everyone knows exactly what it means when they see a cross on the side of the road, without mistake. When I see such a cross, I do not think "there's a symbol of god". I think to myself of death and remembrance of a life that once was.

I wish people would relax and concentrate on more important matters. It requires effort to address such things as these crosses. Couldn't this effort be exerted toward more noble causes?

[hensatri]

On one hand...yes...that effort could be vented elsewhere. On the other hand, it's not like our outrage is a finite resource, there is enough activism and energy to go around even to a cause like this, and on the third hand (yes a three handed reply), some fights are too big to win in the current social climate (getting God off the dollar bill), some are so little that they seem petty (the teacher at public school wear a cross necklace), I think this one is like baby-bear's bed, it's just right.


I do agree that the cross has become part of graveyard imagery, and in that context can be easily seen as transcending religious specificity. If a friend of mine were to die and I were to be in a situation where I would give them and impromptu burial, I can certainly see myself erecting a small cross of branches tied together to mark the grave. I can’t imagine doing otherwise. Whether you are Christian or not, the imagery is part of western culture. So I do not (based on what I know) bear any ill will to those who first erected the memorial. However, where I have a problem is that they clung so firmly to the Christian imagery once it was objected to. I can easily see putting a cross on the memorial without thinking anything controversial about it, but then when someone points out that the memorial is religion specific, and offers to take down the crosses and replace them with secular memorials just as nice if not better, and you suddenly cling to the cross, you have now betrayed yourself. What may have been innocent and unassuming at first is revealed to be religiously divisive. The memorial didn’t just happen to be crosses, no…it HAS to be crosses. If they’d said “Ok, put of some rifles with a helmets on them or something, we don’t care about the Christian part we just want a memorial to our lost friends”, then this would hardly even be news. The only reason that this is a big deal is because, to the people defending the site, if it’s not Christian is not acceptable.

You know what...I need to grow a fourth hand. On the fourth hand I also suspect, although I cannot possibly know, that if the exact same little shrine had been erected with Muslim religious imagery, it would have been taken down, no scratch that, it never would have gotten erected in the first place. I think this is a perfect example of Christianity being so utterly pervasive in the culture that it gets an assumed pass where no such thing should be assumed.

[Jack]

Originally erected back in 2003 by seven Marines grieving over lives lost in the war on terror...

Isn't it presumptuous to think that all the "lives lost in the war on terror" were Christian or even religious? Would a Jew or Muslim consider a cross to be an appropriate marker honoring their loved ones? Even Arlington Cemetery doesn't put a cross on every gravestone. The image is appropriate to the beliefs of the deceased service person.

[ruksak]

On one hand...yes...that effort could be vented elsewhere. On the other hand, it's not like our outrage is a finite resource, there is enough activism and energy to go around even to a cause like this, and on the third hand (yes a three handed reply), some fights are too big to win in the current social climate (getting God off the dollar bill), some are so little that they seem petty (the teacher at public school wear a cross necklace), I think this one is like baby-bear's bed, it's just right.


I do agree that the cross has become part of graveyard imagery, and in that context can be easily seen as transcending religious specificity. If a friend of mine were to die and I were to be in a situation where I would give them and impromptu burial, I can certainly see myself erecting a small cross of branches tied together to mark the grave. I can’t imagine doing otherwise. Whether you are Christian or not, the imagery is part of western culture. So I do not (based on what I know) bear any ill will to those who first erected the memorial. However, where I have a problem is that they clung so firmly to the Christian imagery once it was objected to. I can easily see putting a cross on the memorial without thinking anything controversial about it, but then when someone points out that the memorial is religion specific, and offers to take down the crosses and replace them with secular memorials just as nice if not better, and you suddenly cling to the cross, you have now betrayed yourself. What may have been innocent and unassuming at first is revealed to be religiously divisive. The memorial didn’t just happen to be crosses, no…it HAS to be crosses. If they’d said “Ok, put of some rifles with a helmets on them or something, we don’t care about the Christian part we just want a memorial to our lost friends”, then this would hardly even be news. The only reason that this is a big deal is because, to the people defending the site, if it’s not Christian is not acceptable.

You know what...I need to grow a fourth hand. On the fourth hand I also suspect, although I cannot possibly know, that if the exact same little shrine had been erected with Muslim religious imagery, it would have been taken down, no scratch that, it never would have gotten erected in the first place. I think this is a perfect example of Christianity being so utterly pervasive in the culture that it gets an assumed pass where no such thing should be assumed.

Well said.

BTW....Welcome to Volconvo! I hope you enjoy the forum.

[arX]

if the exact same little shrine had been erected with Muslim religious imagery, it would have been taken down, no scratch that, it never would have gotten erected in the first place

From the article:

Originally erected back in 2003 by seven Marines grieving over lives lost in the war on terror,

Maybe a crescent should also have been erected if it's over lives lost in the wars.

[ruksak]

Maybe a crescent should also have been erected if it's over lives lost in the wars.

Maybe people should drop their hang-ups and just accept that the cross symbolizes death and not Christianity?

To my knowledge, the crescent doesn't symbolize death.

[ruksak]

Isn't it presumptuous to think that all the "lives lost in the war on terror" were Christian or even religious? Would a Jew or Muslim consider a cross to be an appropriate marker honoring their loved ones? Even Arlington Cemetery doesn't put a cross on every gravestone. The image is appropriate to the beliefs of the deceased service person.

A product of political correctness.

The crosses in the OP weren't designated to a specific person.

[Jack]

Maybe people should drop their hang-ups and just accept that the cross symbolizes death and not Christianity?

To my knowledge, the crescent doesn't symbolize death.

Neither does the cross. I'm confident most Christians will tell you the cross is not a reminder of Jesus' death but a celebration of his resurrection. His death on the cross is only significant in light of his resurrection. A cross on a grave doesn't commemorate the person's death but the hope of a future eternal life with god.