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Thread: Tennessee’s Anti-Science Bill Becomes Law

  1. #37
    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    No worries. I don't think anyone is trying to threaten cell mutations.
    By excluding abiogenesis, all I refer to is excluding the origin of life. We don't have a concensus theory for that. For the idea that single celled organisms gradually evolved into the multicellular organisms that make up today's macroscopic plant and animal species, scientific concensus is clear and insurmountable, as evidenced in my citations in the OP. So that should be taught.

    If 97% of scientists in the salient field are behind a given theory, that is what should be taught to students. The proper venue for altering scientific paradigm in turn should be internal to the scientific community. Demagoguery to the an ignorant and partial public isn't science, it is propaganda.

    I was stating a fact, not attempting to redefine an argument.
    Your link rambled on about federal authority. This thread isn't about juristiction, an issue of formalism, it is about the merits and detriments of the law itself.

    Albeit, in review your link doesn't really even get into legalism, it does nothing except tremble at the thought of a slippery slop whose non-existence is manifested by the fact that the status quo has been around for plenty of time without producing the extreme end of the cited maleffects.

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

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  2. #38
    Volcanic Erupter finder's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: HoleyCarbonGrid View Post
    There you go again, conflating two ideas and saying they're one explicitly (emphasis mine).
    Decent from a common ancestor that all life came from is abiogenesis and not evolution?

    Quote Quote by: BlackSheep View Post
    And you you dismiss my experiences.
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
    "The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White

  3. #39
    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    Decent from a common ancestor that all life came from is abiogenesis and not evolution?
    Not the descent. Abiogensis is the question of where the common ancestor came from. How we came from the common ancestor is evolution.

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

  4. #40
    Benevolent Sinner Void Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    I do not. I'm just trying to figure out how the process of evolution got its start and the fact is though they are separate theories, abiogenesis and evolution are closely tied together. Common decent taken to its extreme begs to have this figured out and that aspect of evolution hasn't been proven completely.
    Ill try to find the paper though i am sure i read it in a database from school so i probably cant publish it but there was an experiment. A group took fruit flies, all same species, and they mated and then the group took this second generation. This second generation all had the same ancestor, they split the G2 into multiple groups. Several generations later, about 3 years of fruit fly breeding, they took two of their groups of flies and they couldn't breed them. This Gx from different groups had evolved differently to the point where their DNA could no longer mix. The research group took DNA samples every generation a tracked the progress, so they new that the Gx+1 when they took two groups had no traits of both but only of one or the other.

    Then there is Mendel's research, the tomato, animal domestication, and a long list of evolution in action. I do not know what you expect to see in order for it to be proven but scientific research as supported the claim that evolution happens.

    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    That assumes there is preexisting environments similar to the digestive system of cows with the right ratio of amino acids and proteins, very presumptuous.[/B]
    So you want a steak to spontaneously appear on the ground? The cow's digestive system is that preexisting environment it takes your three grains and turns it into steak on the cow. How did it become this? Evolution brought all the right pieces together. The grains are also only a product of evolution. 4.6Billion years ago, on earth, there was only chemistry. Chains of chemical reactions began to extend further and further restricted by other chemical reactions that also lasted longer than others formed pre cells that had the proper conditions to be self sustaining due to the chemistry that created them this chemistry we call cell walls, mitochondria, RNA, and DNA gradually grew in size of sustainability. As we know the building molecules for this chemistry, amino acids, occur in abundance where there is no life, meteors, so once all those chemicals had the right conditions they become what we see as life.

    So long as harm does not come to an unwilling being, freedom of choice should be limitless.

  5. #41
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    ...abiogenesis and evolution are closely tied together...
    In much the same way the creation story in Genesis is related to Jesus' life. The creation story (stories, actually, since it's presented twice in Genesis with slight variations) are the start of a story that culminates in the life of Jesus. Do all Christians believe in the creation the same way? Of course not. Some are literalists and some take the stories metaphorically. There is little consensus among Christians as to what the creation story is but the majority agree that it is the beginning of a theology that ends with Jesus. The Genesis stories are like the various theories of abiogenesis. The rest of the Biblical narrative is akin to the process of evolution.



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  6. #42
    Volcanic Erupter finder's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    The rest of the Biblical narrative is akin to the process of evolution.
    How do you mean?

    Quote Quote by: BlackSheep View Post
    And you you dismiss my experiences.
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
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    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    How do you mean?
    It's "the rest of the story". It covers the development of the story (the evolution of life/history of the Jews up to Jesus' time) after the initial event (abiogenesis/creation).



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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    It's "the rest of the story". It covers the development of the story (the evolution of life/history of the Jews up to Jesus' time) after the initial event (abiogenesis/creation).
    Oh, I see. To go with that analogy, in scripture the lineage from Adam to Jesus is given, however in abiogenesis we do not have even a fossil of the first life that the rest of us came from, or do we? Do we have the complete story or do we just start from some point after the initial life form?

    Quote Quote by: BlackSheep View Post
    And you you dismiss my experiences.
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
    "The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White

  9. #45
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    To go with that analogy, in scripture the lineage from Adam to Jesus is given...
    But that's after the creation. That lineage would be a metaphor for evolution, not abiogenesis. The moment of creation is the metaphor for abiogenesis.

    ...in abiogenesis we do not have even a fossil of the first life that the rest of us came from...
    We don't and most likely never will. The types of organisms that constituted the first forms of living things were cellular and soft-bodied. Those types of organisms don't fossilize very well.

    ...do we just start from some point after the initial life form?
    Yes, exactly. Evolution affects extant life-forms.



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  10. #46
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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    But that's after the creation.
    You're wrong, Adam, according to scripture was part of the creation.

    So according to evolution every living thing including us owes our existence to this...



    that evolved from nobody knows what? Sorry, too much faith for me. That aspect of evolution to me has not been explicitly proven.

    Quote Quote by: BlackSheep View Post
    And you you dismiss my experiences.
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
    "The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White

  11. #47
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    You're wrong, Adam, according to scripture was part of the creation.
    Granting this to be the case, I hope you realize that the Biblical creation story provides as little useful information about the beginning of life as abiogenesis. God spit, breath and dirt is hardly a scientific formula we can replicate or investigate. So in truth theists and non-believers both have no good idea as to how life began. We both just have a story that is less than satisfying. I'm willing to bet, though, that science manages to explain in detail how life began long before theists can.

    On the subject of Tennessee bills, it seems they're on a roll...and it's a roll in a troubling direction.

    For the past month, one major bill after another has zipped through committee en route to floor votes. A few have hit roadblocks, it’s true, but only to pop up again a week or two later, back on the fast track.

    Considering that a whopping 4,000 bills have been introduced by this assembly in 2011-2012, why should we be surprised that a lot of bills are being expedited now?

    Except that so many of them are, in a word, nutty.

    One wants to allow the slaughter of healthy horses in this state so that the meat can be sold to fancy restaurants in other countries. Another would tax strippers. Still others would allow guns in the parking lots of workplaces and university campuses, or presume to let the state meddle in the affairs of local governments by warning of a vast — and fictitious — conspiracy by the U.N. to subvert the world order through environmental initiatives (right here, in Tennessee).

    And two of these — a voter ID bill to combat a fictitious fraud problem and a bill to dumb down the teaching of science in public schools — already have become law.

    There are other such bills that strain credulity and scare average Tennesseans out of their wits. Because they were brought forth by duly elected Tennessee legislators, we are supposed to accept them — but clearly, lawmakers are asking a lot: to close our eyes and plug our ears to irrational behavior.

    Maybe there’s another factor at work.

    Yes, we registered voters elected these senators and representatives. But we did not elect the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), the National Chamber of Commerce, the National Rifle Association and the Eagle Forum. But they wrote many of these bills. These groups and their operatives are not from Tennessee, and frankly, they do not care about Tennessee except in how our acceptance of these bad bills serves their agendas.

    If you’re looking for an actual vast conspiracy, this is pretty close.

    Such “model” legislation, as it is known, is cooked up by these organizations to bring their extreme goals to fruition on a national scale. They only need to entice key legislators, usually with campaign contributions, to carry their bills for them as if they were their own — as if they were intended for the good of the people of Tennessee. They seldom are.

    Through their bills, they are able to get laws passed that the majority of the people of this state would never approve of. So far, Tennesseans have let this happen, but it doesn’t have to be this way. Rep. Mike Turner, D-Nashville, knows that. Last year, he introduced legislation to require that bills connected to such out-of-state organizations publicly identify as such. The bill was quickly quashed. But the more residents of this state who know of this sleazy practice, the more likely it will end, through the ballot box or through a call for accountability like Rep. Turner’s.

    That said, it’s important to note that Gov. Bill Haslam, who a week ago was quoted as complaining that the media spend too much time covering the crazy legislation while overlooking the good stuff, was right in part.

    His administration should get credit and attention for sensible legislation that gets tough on violent felons and domestic abuse; cracks down on meth labs; encourages more students to complete college; and more.

    But when he suggests that the crazy bills would wither on the vine if reporters weren’t shining a light on them, he’s quite mistaken. Groups like ALEC and the NRA don’t go away quietly with a little success — they just get greedier, and take time and resources away from good government.

    As for the bill that will open the door to treating creationism and “intelligent design” as if they were scientific theory — that may or may not be model legislation. But the governor’s refusal to veto the bill suggests Tennessee has a little homegrown crazy going on, too.
    Back-alley bills make Tennessee tremble | The Tennessean | tennessean.com



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  12. #48
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    Granting this to be the case, I hope you realize
    that the Biblical creation story provides as little useful information
    about the beginning of life as abiogenesis.
    God spit, breath and dirt is hardly a scientific formula
    we can replicate or investigate.
    It's a cheap explanation, I think. The mere idea that "creation" could occur that way sounds far fetched, to say the least.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

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