Worker Ownership For the 21st Century?

[minorwork]

It's not socialist at all, but there's Frans De Wall's Age of Empathy - Amazon.com: The Age of Empathy: Nature's Lessons for a Kinder Society (9780307407764): Frans de Waal: Books

Doesn't he conclude that it would be necessary to expand the range of fellow feeling? Isn't that changing human nature? Not saying it can't be done but your concept of doing it by shooting all, even your family, who oppose you I find unacceptable. Necessary to the committed and disciplined vanguard though, eh?

If you want socialist views on it, you can read almost any of Marx's works. However, since you're probably not going to do that, I'll give you a quote from Lenin that addresses it pretty well:

If only geography, weather and people were homogenous. But as it is, another cumbersome failed ideology that couldn't compete with nimble responses to variables that the free market provides.

Because it's basic democracy. I'm guessing you're sympathetic to the Republican Party, so tell me this - There's a Republican majority in the House of Representatives right now. Do you feel that they are "bossing around" the Democrats in the House? I doubt most people would see it that way. There can still be compromises and respectful discussion just like there is in any democratic institution. In fact, having it on such a small scale would make it so that there is less "bossing around".

Perverted sense of bossing you've got. Equivalent of bullying. Bosses in the mine might bully. However, the goal is not bureaucracy but a product that is desired by consumers willing to trade their labor in exchange and NOT a product shoved down consumers' throats by you, er, by committee planners.

[Dan74]

Doesn't he conclude that it would be necessary to expand the range of fellow feeling? Isn't that changing human nature? Not saying it can't be done but your concept of doing it by shooting all, even your family, who oppose you I find unacceptable. Necessary to the committed and disciplined vanguard though, eh?

I'm not some hot-headed warmonger hoping to shoot me some capitalists. I see no reason for executions and that sort of thing. Punishment can come in other ways, like rights restrictions.

If only geography, weather and people were homogenous. But as it is, another cumbersome failed ideology that couldn't compete with nimble responses to variables that the free market provides.

"Free market" is an overwhelmingly Randian and individualistic concept. It has no place in our society.

Perverted sense of bossing you've got. Equivalent of bullying. Bosses in the mine might bully. However, the goal is not bureaucracy but a product that is desired by consumers willing to trade their labor in exchange and NOT a product shoved down consumers' throats by you, er, by committee planners.

Why would it be shoved down consumers' throats? It's not like innovation would cease to exist under socialism.

[minorwork]

I'm not some hot-headed warmonger hoping to shoot me some capitalists. I see no reason for executions and that sort of thing. Punishment can come in other ways, like rights restrictions.

Good point. No Stalin or Mao type campaigns. A government monopoly on salt though. Tax the hell out of the salt used by those who dare to offer competitive products to the state's communal farms. Don't let them mine their own either. That'll bring their asses in line. True salt hunger. Yep.

"Free market" is an overwhelmingly Randian and individualistic concept. It has no place in our society.

No competition at all, eh?

Why would it be shoved down consumers' throats? It's not like innovation would cease to exist under socialism.

Sure it would. No competition, no innovation. Why not just have old lye soap? Why have more than one kind of toilet paper?

You want to prove for yourself that what you envision is possible you have but to put it into play at your own domicile. A wife and children running things democratically. Money evenly distributed. Whatever you envision and keep records for however long you can before the divorce. If you can change human nature of those most influenced by you then I think you'll have something worth pursuing. Go for that single type of soap and toilet paper, or whatever that would be different in your household if money and job status was not considered in who spent what money. I hope the children don't outnumber the parents. Children make for vindictive committee chairs.

[Dan74]

Good point. No Stalin or Mao type campaigns. A government monopoly on salt though. Tax the hell out of the salt used by those who dare to offer competitive products to the state's communal farms. Don't let them mine their own either. That'll bring their asses in line. True salt hunger. Yep.

I was thinking more along the lines of restrictions on legal rights. Taxes shouldn't have a place in a socialist society. In fact, Albania, a nation seen by many to be "Stalinist", abolished taxation.

No competition at all, eh?

I don't really see the need for "competition", though innovation can come in other ways.

[minorwork]

I was thinking more along the lines of restrictions on legal rights. Taxes shouldn't have a place in a socialist society. In fact, Albania, a nation seen by many to be "Stalinist", abolished taxation.

But punishment was your recommendation wasn't it? If those striving to compete with communes individually; those living on a shoreline were not allowed salt but what came from a communal effort and then but minute amounts they would surely break, eh? There is precedent for this salt depriving strategy to bring those revolting to heel.

I don't really see the need for "competition", though innovation can come in other ways.

Simpler?

[BobbyO]

Because it's basic democracy. I'm guessing you're sympathetic to the Republican Party, so tell me this - There's a Republican majority in the House of Representatives right now. Do you feel that they are "bossing around" the Democrats in the House? I doubt most people would see it that way. There can still be compromises and respectful discussion just like there is in any democratic institution. In fact, having it on such a small scale would make it so that there is less "bossing around".

gee whiz, dan- you STILL just won't admit that people will still be told what to do in a socialist community. Anything to hold on to this Kumbaya fantasy.
And now you have thrown in psychological arguments!

There - I underlined the answer for you. The boss is not going to decide conditions based solely on how much needs to be produced. He's going to put his paycheck into consideration.

EVERYONE will do that as well in the socialist community. They will have to decide whether the work they do is worth their time and effort for the benefits which they get back. Even if the benefits are a warm feeling of happiness.

Indeed it is. If socialism is to truly be built then capitalist dissidence must be suppressed.

And the dissent of socialists who might now tow the line.

Anyone that wishes to build socialism democratically is delusional.

No. Anyone who chooses to build socialism via LIBERAL democracy is "delusional." Building it via totalitarian democracy is the more realistic path.
Ergo, your "buddies" in Pyongyang and Havana...

[Dan74]

gee whiz, dan- you STILL just won't admit that people will still be told what to do in a socialist community. Anything to hold on to this Kumbaya fantasy.
And now you have thrown in psychological arguments!

That does not equate to a capitalist boss in any way.

EVERYONE will do that as well in the socialist community. They will have to decide whether the work they do is worth their time and effort for the benefits which they get back. Even if the benefits are a warm feeling of happiness.

Not really, since everyone's needs will be met in an ideal communist society.

No. Anyone who chooses to build socialism via LIBERAL democracy is "delusional." Building it via totalitarian democracy is the more realistic path.
Ergo, your "buddies" in Pyongyang and Havana...

That's funny, because I've told you about half a dozen times already that I'm not a vanguardist. The DPRK is a sad excuse for a socialist state, since socialism was terminated by a huge personality cult and Juche. Cuba is no longer making an effort at socialism, as evidenced by the continuations of unfair wages and private property.

I'm done arguing with you. Not because you "win", but because I no longer wish to address the same damn points over and over again.

[Derach]

Any proponents of a socialist political system should be required to manage a diverse group of individuals for a common goal (ie, coach a sports team, lead an orchestra, or (gasp) manage co-workers). You will quickly learn that the group quickly reverts to the 'lowest common denominator'. The hard workers quickly revert to the habits of the laziest ones. The good apples in a bunch don't make the bad one good ... it works the other way (entropy). Unfortunately for communists and socialists, human nature will always render these political systems terminally flawed.

[Dodds]

Any proponents of a socialist political system should be required to manage a diverse group of individuals for a common goal (ie, coach a sports team, lead an orchestra, or (gasp) manage co-workers). You will quickly learn that the group quickly reverts to the 'lowest common denominator'. The hard workers quickly revert to the habits of the laziest ones. The good apples in a bunch don't make the bad one good ... it works the other way (entropy). Unfortunately for communists and socialists, human nature will always render these political systems terminally flawed.

Emmm I actually did that. Won awards for it and everything. Didn't see any of what you suggested. In fact the opposite was true. The good ones kept the bad ones in check and we all worked together for a team goal. In my experience you are talking crap or you just had really bad managers.

[RjBig]

you guys make some points....It is because of that we need to do something new...We have tried, Capitalism, Socialism, Communism and they all have Failed over and over again....Einstein once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results...It is time we tried something new...All of these systems have failed for the exact same reason...Corruption...All of these systems are TOP down structures that congregate power into the hands of a few...That inherently leads to corruption...We must find a New Way....Until then the BIG IDEA is our best bet...It levels the playing field and Frees humanity from forced labor...That change alone will make Capitalism much Fairer and much more efficient and Green....Sweet....the BIG IDEA....Basic Income Guarantee...Google it...

[Dan74]

Any proponents of a socialist political system should be required to manage a diverse group of individuals for a common goal (ie, coach a sports team, lead an orchestra, or (gasp) manage co-workers). You will quickly learn that the group quickly reverts to the 'lowest common denominator'. The hard workers quickly revert to the habits of the laziest ones. The good apples in a bunch don't make the bad one good ... it works the other way (entropy). Unfortunately for communists and socialists, human nature will always render these political systems terminally flawed.

The problem with your simplistic argument is that sports team, orchestras, etc. aren't necessary for society to function. A coal mine, however, gives a society its main energy source. Then things wouldn't depend on the good workers only.

[grandpa]

The problem with your simplistic argument is that sports team,
orchestras, etc. aren't necessary for society to function.
A coal mine, however, gives a society its main energy
source.

That's a dinosaur energy source, as far as I'm concerned.

But, speaking of energy, here's some food for thought about "capitalism":
"Even when a company's operating income goes down, its profits
can still go up if it has tax credits on tap. PPL Montana LLC, a subsidiary of PPL
Corp., the holding company for such utilities as Pennsylvania Power & Light
and Montana Power, ..."
The Great Energy Scam - TIME

More general stuff:
"This week in Occupy, the Cruz home at 4044 Cedar Avenue in South Minneapolis became a national flashpoint for the Movement, overthrown Egyptian former dictator Hosni Mubarak was sentenced to life in prison, Canadian solidarity had everyone wearing red, the Wisconsin gubernatorial recall sparked a frenzy among politicians and activists alike, and an Occupy Yale activist left us far too soon."
#Occupied: Reports From the Front Lines by Jennifer SacksThe Occupied Wall Street Journal

Grandpa h.