IQ difference between races is Genetic, NOT enviromental

[Senor Hoint]

Having a low IQ does not predetermine the events of every situation.

Yet you advocate eugenics and claim that the low average IQ is the cause of the impoverishment.

You've come to the hardest part about any controversial topic. You have to think for yourself and choose which one of two conflicting quotes is more meaningful.

Since the one you posted represents a single symposium that happened nearly 30 years ago I'm gonna go with mine which represents the current scholarly consensus.

Yes and East-Asians have higher IQ then Europeans, thanks for proving my point.

Yet somehow China and Japan also succumbed to European imperialism.

Well they weren't full Africans. That picture you posted, has the skin of an african, but look at the facial structure. That aint no African face. Also, hair samples of Nubians reveal they had mixed-Europeans/Africans.

The picture is from 1900, after hundreds of years of Arab domination in the region. But it's not surprising that you'd try to claim that anyone who had created a civilization could not be black simply because it conflicts with your notion of how the world works.

They were still miles ahead of the blacks.

Yes, you would say that the Holocaust represents "advancement..."

[Thanatos]

As a moderator, I ask our valued members to refrain from responding to some of the comments made herein with anything that could reasonably be construed as a personal insult.

Carry on.

[lsbskins1]

I agree that we can't easily tell how much variation in IQ test scores is genetic. The only reason I posted to this thread was because it seemed to me that many were arguing that there couldn't be any genetic contribution to IQ scores which is a logically untenable position.



Funny, it seems to be significant enough to influence racial averages for hundreds if not thousands of physical attributes.



Nobody is saying that individuals can't fall anywhere on the bell curve. Why do you persist with this straw man?



For an individual, of course not, but the average frequency of an allele in a race exists and while not fixed it moves very slowly.



Finally, a genetic basis for IQ exists and for every race there is an average IQ. Thank you, that's all I'm trying to get across because I was getting the impression that you and others were trying to argue that no genetic basis for IQ could possibly exist, which is patently absurd.

I never claimed, ever, that there was no genetic basis for IQ...ever. I said that there was no racial genetic limit to IQ. And I never said there was no average IQ differences between the races...ever. I said that the differences were almost certainly (and by saying almost, think of that almost as the "almost" I would apply to the almost certainty I feel that aliens are not picking up individuals and doing anal probes) due to factors other than genetics.

Darklord is taking the position that the average differences that exist prove that blacks are less intellectually competent than whites because of a genetic inferiority that cannot be altered. He believes that blacks cannot reach the intellectual potential of whites, nor can they be trusted to reasonably run a society because the differences are so FIXED and PROFOUND that allowing them any form of actual self-determination will lead to failed societies, awash in death and suffering and he claims that there is scientific, genetically based evidence for this notion. He believes that the average IQ differences that exist, exist almost exclusively because of this FIXED and PROFOUND difference. Diet doesn't matter, available resources don't matter, environment doesn't matter. It all comes down to the fact that blacks are genetically, intellectually inferior to whites. Don't believe me? Ask him.

I am in the middle of arguing with Adolf Hitler that the Jews are not parasites who never work hard and don't control all the worlds finances, and you want to jump in and say, "Are you claiming that no Jew has ever been lazy or loaned money at interest?" WTF?

[Dan74]

I probably shouldn't even waste my time arguing, but I guess I have nothing better to do right now.

And thank Christ they did colonize the world. Aboriginals were here for thousands of years, and made practically no advancements. If it weren't for the colonizers, the Aboriginals would still be living in tribal societies, with none of the advancement of modern science.

Wow! So do you like, have a view of the future??!? How do you do that? Is there a time machine somewhere?? Because that's the only way someone could know if the Aboriginals would never have "modernized".

[Jack]

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[Darklordabc]

Wow! So do you like, have a view of the future??!? How do you do that? Is there a time machine somewhere?? Because that's the only way someone could know if the Aboriginals would never have "modernized".

They did nothing in thousands of years, I don't think they should be given another thousand years. Aboriginals have the lowest IQ and smallest brain sizes of any race, they didnt even invent the wheel, trust me, they weren't going to create new York. And have you seen how modern full blooded aboriginals live, today, in 2012? Its not much better then a tribal society.

And I never said there was no average IQ differences between the races...ever. I said that the differences were almost certainly (and by saying almost, think of that almost as the "almost" I would apply to the almost certainty I feel that aliens are not picking up individuals and doing anal probes) due to factors other than genetics.

Nit Picking. Saying something has the chance of a miraculously event, is effectively the same as saying its impossible. This greatly shows your bias. No biological science or geneticist worth her grain would go as far as saying that racial differences is IQ as practically impossible. If anything, the genetic theory is the stronger case then environment (I suggest you watch the steven pinker I posted a couple of posts ago, where he claims the same thing)

I am in the middle of arguing with Adolf Hitler that the Jews are not parasites who never work hard and don't control all the worlds finances, and you want to jump in and say, "Are you claiming that no Jew has ever been lazy or loaned money at interest?" WTF?

I'm Adolf Hitler? Nice.

Darklord is taking the position that the average differences that exist prove that blacks are less intellectually competent than whites because of a genetic inferiority that cannot be altered. He believes that blacks cannot reach the intellectual potential of whites, nor can they be trusted to reasonably run a society because the differences are so FIXED and PROFOUND that allowing them any form of actual self-determination will lead to failed societies, awash in death and suffering and he claims that there is scientific, genetically based evidence for this notion. He believes that the average IQ differences that exist, exist almost exclusively because of this FIXED and PROFOUND difference. Diet doesn't matter, available resources don't matter, environment doesn't matter. It all comes down to the fact that blacks are genetically, intellectually inferior to whites. Don't believe me? Ask him.

Kudos, thats a refreshing accurate representation in a debate which has been plagued with strawmen. But there is some incorrect parts (the bold). Environment does matter. Even Adoption studies showed that blacks raised in white families had sightly higher IQ's then living in black families (approximately 89 instead of the black average 85).
But your connection between neo-colonialism and believing that races may have differences in average IQ, is incorrect. That is just my personal theory on how we can respond to the inequality. A theory which does not imbue the fundamental truth it was based on. For example, Darwinism, is a fact, but that does not mean you have to believe in all the whacky theories that claimed to be based on Darwinism.

[lsbskins1]

I compared you to Hitler because it is an apt comparison. He believed things that were plainly bullshit. He had his own set of like-minded "scientists" who he used to attempt to give legitimacy to these things that he believed that were plainly bullshit. The bullshit that he believed was dangerous. The real difference is that you don't have the power to implement your plans, and therefore have no power to have us awash in blood.

He, too, claimed to have the best of intentions, claimed that he only wanted to preserve what was good and noble in the world by protecting it from the corrupting influence of the community he chose to scapegoat. You claim a humanitarian, compassionate concern for those you denigrate. I suspect, but have no proof, that this is window dressing to make your ideas seem less dangerous. But it doesn't really matter whether you are hiding your actual feelings or if you have an honest compassion, if your ideas were allowed to gain implementation, the end result would be the same. No community can rely on a despot.

I could also compare you to Lenin and Stalin, with your insistence on the necessity for a permanent "dictatorship of the black proletariat". The world knows the danger of the ideas you push. But, the world sometimes forgets. I haven't. If you don't want to be compared to Hitler or Lenin or Stalin, don't adapt versions of their ideals for your own personal creed. If you seek to implement a tainted creed, the taint will tend to bleed over onto your person.

This isn't simply a disagreement about a nebulous fact. We are not Burton and Speake, debating whether the source of the Nile had been discovered in front of the members of the Geographic Society. The matter is, in fact, moral.

[Dodds]

I am just going to leave this here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0924231749.htm

http://www.healthynutritionexpert.co...-childrens-iq/

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/154/8/711.full

Yeah, that shits genetic. (This is sarcasm for those who do not get it.)

[Darklordabc]

I compared you to Hitler because it is an apt comparison.

Hitler wanted to murder the "inferior" races, thats the opposite of what I want to do. I am all inclusive, I want to help them and free them from poverty, starvation and misery. The comparison is a very low blow.

You claim a humanitarian, compassionate concern for those you denigrate. I suspect, but have no proof, that this is window dressing to make your ideas seem less dangerous. But it doesn't really matter whether you are hiding your actual feelings or if you have an honest compassion, if your ideas were allowed to gain implementation, the end result would be the same.

I don't really care what online people think of my views, if my motivation was to exterminate the other races, I would just come out and say it. Quit your motive questioning.

This isn't simply a disagreement about a nebulous fact. We are not Burton and Speake, debating whether the source of the Nile had been discovered in front of the members of the Geographic Society. The matter is, in fact, moral.

The same panic and insults were used against every person who held views that were ahead of their times. Your incorrect application of moral value to this question of fact, was used against Galileo and Darwin.

If you don't want to be compared to Hitler or Lenin or Stalin, don't adapt versions of their ideals for your own personal creed. If you seek to implement a tainted creed, the taint will tend to bleed over onto your person.

I should be able to argue my views on how to help humanity without being compared to the biggest mass murders in history. I view your opinions on race as the real destructive force, which is currently causing millions of deaths, but I don't call you Pol pot.

I am just going to leave this here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0924231749.htm

http://www.healthynutritionexpert.co...-childrens-iq/

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/154/8/711.full

Yeah, that shits genetic. (This is sarcasm for those who do not get it.)

This adds nothing to the debate, and disproves nobody.

[Dodds]

This adds nothing to the debate, and disproves nobody.

And what have you added bar a bunch of disproved theories about genetic influence on IQ and a link between brain size and IQ. Both are false assertions.

IQ is a flawed way to measure intelligence, if what you claimed was true then why are blacks closing the IQ gap on whites? Nothing else bar racism would allow anyone to forward such stupid and outdated ideas.

On a side note, you do advocate policies that sound like eugenics. As did Hitler. The comparison is quite apt.

[Darklordabc]

And what have you added bar a bunch of disproved theories about genetic influence on IQ and a link between brain size and IQ. Both are false assertions.

IQ is a flawed way to measure intelligence, if what you claimed was true then why are blacks closing the IQ gap on whites?

Wow, 4 completely wrong statements. You need to do some basic research on this matter. I suggest going to Wikipedia and reading about race and IQ, it disproves all those 4 assertions.

[Dodds]

Read it. And it doesn't even half hold up your assertions.

Questions, please answer.

1:Is IQ a flawed way to measure intelligence?
2:Has IQ increased over the years on all people?
3:Can you prove a genetic link between IQ and race?
4:Can you prove that black people are not closing the IQ gap?

Answer all of those questions directly and then I might entertain you. I am willing to bet you can't.