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Thread: Newt Gingrich and Palestine

  1. #13
    Kuehnelt-Leddihn
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Quote by: The Decider View Post
    False analogy. Even Ronald Reagan never called the people of the former Soviet Union "invented." He may have wanted a smaller subset of states, including one for mostly ethnic Russians, but he never insulted his opponents by questioning the historical existence.
    He said they were Arabs.

    Sorry, you can't advance the peaceful settlement of a diplomatic problem by calling one of the two combatants "invented people."
    People said much the same thing when Reagan spoke about the "evil empire" and other such comments.
    Happily, we now know such people were wrong.

    Those "certain things" do not include justifying their historical existence as a people.
    By that standard, the Kurds have a far greater justification to an independent Kurdistan. But to my knowledge no country actually supports the creation of such a country.

    By that standard, a majority of nations in the world with colonial pasts would have a tough time overcoming their colonial "invention."
    The claim isn't that Arabs residing in Palestine cannot develop feelings of being distinct from Arabs now known as Syrians, or Jordanians ect. The claim is that such feelings to develop into being 'Palestinians' has to go beyond their simple say so.
    Gingrich supports the two state solution; he supports an independent Palestine.
    But Palestine, as per Gingrich, has to earn it.


  2. #14
    Volcanic Erupter The Decider's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: BobbyO View Post
    He said they were Arabs.
    And so are the Iraqis, another "invented" people of Arab descent. Oh wait....

    Quote Quote by: BobbyO View Post
    People said much the same thing when Reagan spoke about the "evil empire" and other such comments. Happily, we now know such people were wrong.
    False analogy again. Reagan attacked the Russian-led Soviet government, not the Russians as a national entity.

    Quote Quote by: BobbyO View Post
    By that standard, the Kurds have a far greater justification to an independent Kurdistan. But to my knowledge no country actually supports the creation of such a country.
    Independence often requires international support. Someday the Kurds may get it. The Palestinians already have it. Only Gingrich and some whacked out Israeli conservative supporters of "Greater Israel" still question it as "invented."

    Quote Quote by: BobbyO View Post
    The claim isn't that Arabs residing in Palestine cannot develop feelings of being distinct from Arabs now known as Syrians, or Jordanians ect. The claim is that such feelings to develop into being 'Palestinians' has to go beyond their simple say so. Gingrich supports the twostate solution; he supports an independent Palestine.
    But Palestine, as per Gingrich, has to earn it.
    Palestine has earned her independence by international consensus, Gingrich's historical opinion notwithstanding.


  3. #15
    Troll Slayer NoJingoLingo's Avatar
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    The grinch is merely pandering to evangelical xians who only support Israel to advance the ridiculous notion of "the end times". Much the same as Reagan pandered to xianity using those godless commies...

    Coalition to Unchain Dogs - video

    The "Critical Left"? Better than the "Ignorant Right".

  4. #16
    Hot Lava iolo's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: NoJingoLingo View Post
    The grinch is merely pandering to evangelical xians who only support Israel to advance the ridiculous notion of "the end times". Much the same as Reagan pandered to xianity using those godless commies...
    But what sort of scumbag would do it? Could any country seriously elect such a lying swine?


  5. #17
    Troll Slayer NoJingoLingo's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: iolo View Post
    But what sort of scumbag would do it?
    Do what?
    Could any country seriously elect such a lying swine?
    G.W. Bush...

    Coalition to Unchain Dogs - video

    The "Critical Left"? Better than the "Ignorant Right".

  6. #18
    Hot Lava iolo's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: NoJingoLingo View Post
    Do what?
    G.W. Bush...
    Lie so obviously - this from a man with his disgusting marital history. When Bush 2 was elected he was just a reformed drunk playing stupid: Gingrich is a confirmed scumbag already.


  7. #19
    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Chris the Chees View Post
    As I am sure everyone is aware Newt Gingrich recently made a comment regarding the historical legacy of Palestine and the people within that part of the word who describe themselves as Palestinians. Gingrich, in his comments, described the Palestinian people as being 'invented'. The purpose of Gingrich's comment was to boslter the claim by Israeli's to inhabit the land they call home and to rebut the claims by those individuals, who identify themselves as being Palestinians, to parts of that same region.

    I was asked to share my views on Gingrich's comments publically on the forum. After a little thought this proved to be rather tricky. Unfortunately, the history of the region is not a topic which I have looked at in any major detail. So, prior to making this post, I did a little reading around the topic. On one hand Gingrich has something of a point. It is a fact that the region has prior to the foundation of Israel spent much of its history, stretching back many many centuries, as part of one empire or another. It has not been a seperate independent state in its own right. Prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, the region had been a part of the British Empire. Britain had acquired the region following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire which had formerly controlled the region in the First World War. The Ottomans had controlled the region since 1516. Prior to this point the region had been controlled by various Islamic empires since 636. Even prior to this period the region swapped hands between various foreign dynasties.

    So Gingrich is certainly correct on one level. However, I would suggest that this is a superficial analysis. While the region may have well been a provice of one empire or another until well into the ancient period, if not earlier, that does not indicate that the region was not a unique, self contained identifiable geographical, political and cultural unit.

    The Egyptian's recognised the existence of a region they described as 'Peleset' over 3,000 years ago. The Assyrians refered to a Palashtu around 800 bc, and Palestine was refered to by Herodotus. So while the region has not been politically seperate from various empires over the span of time, it has regionally been identified under that name and so to, by extension, have its people.

    This raises the question of whether a geo-politically disenfranchised group can be accorded recognition. This actually strikes me as a rather silly question, because the answer is obviously yes, they can. Nobody would deny the Welsh that label. Yet the Welsh people too have never really existed if we go by the notion that the existence of a historically independent state defines the right to invoke a national identity. Prior to th Edwardian conquest of Wales the region was made up of various small politically, and often unaffiliated warring, independent regions. Indeed the idea of a single 'Wales' was actually a product of the English.

    We can make similar observations of many other regons. We must also conaider the fact that Gingrich's objections regarding the Palestinian people also can be directed against Israel. When over the last 1,000 years, prior to 1948, can we see an independent Israel? Why, if the Palestinian people are invented, can the same label not be applied to Israelis?
    As a curiosity, do you consider the plight of the Palestinians similar to the Basque separatist struggle? I see a lot of light cast on the Palestinians, but little on similarly disenfranchised groups, even though both are at times violent. Palestinians are condemned while Basques are given a pass in the media. Curiouser and curiouser.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

  8. #20
    busy Chris the Chees's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Angry Citizen View Post
    As a curiosity, do you consider the plight of the Palestinians similar to the Basque separatist struggle? I see a lot of light cast on the Palestinians, but little on similarly disenfranchised groups, even though both are at times violent. Palestinians are condemned while Basques are given a pass in the media. Curiouser and curiouser.
    A good question, but I would have to read the history of the Basque seperatists in order to pass any meaningful judgement or consider the validity of the comparison.

    Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.

    Robert Owen

  9. #21
    Jersey Fresh. msheikh's Avatar
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    Republican Jewish Coalition brags it gives 'tens of millions' every political cycle

    Why do so many people have a conspiratorial view of the Israel lobby? One reason is that our media are largely silent on what we all know to be a real force in our politics, and so feverish minds are left to speculate.

    The latest evidence. A week or so after Newt Gingrich said that the Palestinians are an invented people, his Super PAC has received $5 million from Sheldon Adelson, whose central cause is Israel.



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