Modern Martyrdom

[Marwood]

How can I reject that which exists? Certainly the delusional opt for martyrdom presuming rewards for the act after they're dead. Certainly there exists a necessity for some leaving an overloaded lifeboat with the idea that some better than all should die. The first instance demonstrates delusion absent evidence of an afterlife. Such a strong delusion too, in the martyr of the first instance. If Abraham's delusion had been of such strength he would have slain Isaac.

So you believe the pastor's refusal to recant is risible because it's motivated by a belief you don't share?

[Marwood]

Since when is it an ad hom to call someone a capitalist?

You suggested that minorwork's argument was at fault because he is an American capitalist. It's absolutely an ad hominem.

I se the problem now, your an american capitalist.

[SoylentGreen]

[QUOTE=minorwork;839510]Sounds like a personal problem you've got there. It's an Ad Hominem fallacy unless its true. It's not. Your strawman of capitalism with "what's in it for me" falls apart when I embrace helping neighbors and those unknown to me with my rather impersonal advocacy of raising money with taxes to cover those less well off than Bill Gates, Warren buffet, and myself. QUOTE]

That is completely irrelevant. My comment was not a referrence to your life style but to the particular argument you are making on this thread. And I stand by the comment that in this argument your view appears to be that martydom has no personal benefit so should be discarded.

I appreciate the modern martyr's political goals far more than I do the goals promising favoritism by a deity in a mythical afterlife.


OK. I see your distinction and embrace it. I'll give the Buddhist kudos in the same way I'd give Patrick Henry kudos if his statement had gotten him hung.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" ~ Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

But your distinguishing between the pastor and the Buddhist martyrs as prodded by religion and the other not, and my embracing the thought, I'll expect challenges from the Christians that Buddhism is a religion since more than one of the Christians are quick to crazily declare science a religion too.

And I too now see the distinction. You are arguing a specific case of alleged martydom, not, as i originally thought, the very concept of martydom.
I only jumped in to defend martydom as a useful tactic in waging a war.

Another saint spared by God's Hand in the tradition of Abraham and Isaac? Or in the tradition of Kent Hovind and Peter Popoff?

From reading the article it sounds more like another attempt at islam bashing by the right wing christian movement. There usual tactic of scream persecution and ignore the facts.

OK, sure. I'll support the immolate's action on those terms. But damn, I'd have sure been casting around for some other way first.

I would argue that the budhists had been persecuted for quite awhile and chose an option that would save more lives than not.

Do you think we'll have to wait much longer for the Occupy Wall Street bunch to show similar resolve? Be hard for Fox to ignore an immolation.[/

No, martydom does not work with the wrong crowd. The budhist new he could shame america because they were already half way ashamed with the vietnam war. Wall st and fox do not know the meaning of the word shame.

[SoylentGreen]

You suggested that minorwork's argument was at fault because he is an American capitalist. It's absolutely an ad hominem.

No, I said his argument is at fault because he is applying capitalist value to martydom.

[minorwork]

So you believe the pastor's refusal to recant is risible because it's motivated by a belief you don't share?

I can only speculate as to his belief and have stated that I can find no rational reason to avoid recanting if his reason is that he would die instead of having everlasting life. Yes, I find those of such belief easily manipulated by any wanting to reinforce those beliefs to use the adherents belief based actions for an agenda propagating such nonsense. It is my opinion that even in the Christian tradition such statements as -- "I would die for Christ."-- are based on a misunderstanding of the religion that Jesus himself is purported to have lived.

[Thanatos]

Everybody likes people who are willing to give something up to make the world a better place.

[Marwood]

I can only speculate as to his belief and have stated that I can find no rational reason to avoid recanting if his reason is that he would die instead of having everlasting life. Yes, I find those of such belief easily manipulated by any wanting to reinforce those beliefs to use the adherents belief based actions for an agenda propagating such nonsense. It is my opinion that even in the Christian tradition such statements as -- "I would die for Christ."-- are based on a misunderstanding of the religion that Jesus himself is purported to have lived.

I don't think we need to speculate too much - he's a Christian pastor, and we've covered in some depth why he might choose death over denial of his god. I'm done. Thanks for the debate.

[shunyadragon]

Everybody likes people who are willing to give something up to make the world a better place.

Not necessarily. Most people who give their lives for their own belief or cause do so for their belief and cause, and not everyone agrees.

[Ken Carman]

Iranian Pastor Faces Execution For Refusing To Recant Christian Faith | Fox News

What is it with martyrs? What's the attraction? Is there a payoff to this idiocy? Was Galileo a fool to recant?

For some, I suppose, it's the promise of virgins, heaven and of course getting one up with one's deity.

I actually have a few martyrs in my family history.

[minorwork]

For some, I suppose, it's the promise of virgins, heaven and of course getting one up with one's deity.

I actually have a few martyrs in my family history.

No kidding? What were they going for, getting close to the deity or heaven. Can't imagine the attraction of virgins. That would really be getting led down the garden path, eh?

[minorwork]

That is completely irrelevant. My comment was not a reference to your life style but to the particular argument you are making on this thread. And I stand by the comment that in this argument your view appears to be that martyrdom has no personal benefit so should be discarded.

My view has ought to do with gain but loss. The man is alive. Not only does a Christian martyring himself not gain a thing but he is losing his/her life for a wish in the case of my exampled Christian contemplating his afterlife. Could be that's not his thinking though. But it is what my argument is based on that he not only will NOT gain a damn thing but he will not even stay even. If that's capitalist thinking, you got me. I'd feel empathy for his wife and kid.

And I too now see the distinction. You are arguing a specific case of alleged martyrdom, not, as i originally thought, the very concept of martyrdom.
I only jumped in to defend martyrdom as a useful tactic in waging a war.

Well, I was going to eventually bring up types and you pulled into the lead there for sure. I was "trolling" for some understanding that I might get from the Christian believers in an afterlife class system based on a person's conduct before dying.

From reading the article it sounds more like another attempt at Islam bashing by the right wing Christian movement. There usual tactic of scream persecution and ignore the facts.

I think Quakers were heard to complain about being hanged for interrupting the Puritans church services as well.

I would argue that the Buddhists had been persecuted for quite awhile and chose an option that would save more lives than not.

Some say two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan for the same reason. Hopefully the Buddhists' ratio of saved lives per life lost was higher but I'd only be guessing with the situational differences and all.

No, martyrdom does not work with the wrong crowd. The Buddhist new he could shame America because they were already half way ashamed with the Vietnam war. Wall st and fox do not know the meaning of the word shame.

A Kent state type death or three by provoking enforcement gunfire would not prime engines of change? Maybe Michael Moore taking the bullets?

[Ken Carman]

No kidding? What were they going for, getting close to the deity or heaven. Can't imagine the attraction of virgins. That would really be getting led down the garden path, eh?

Oddly enough they were going for something else: family and dedication to friends. From what I understand Bloody Mary's crew came through (both sides had armies at the time) demanding my super great grandma give up her kids for the cause and she refused: burned. Then, on the male side, super GP was "asked" to testify against a family friend and in-law in regards to heresy. He refused. Light em up again. Shortly after that the whole family left for America. Wonder why?

The whole virgin thing is baffling. I mean even if true, they wouldn't be virgin for long. If they prize virgins so much would there be some water fountain there they can replenish their supply? Or do they plan on just gazing from afar. Wouldn't that be Hell?