In a heartbeat. What's the big deal with guys like this pastor? Are they waiting for a sign from God permitting them to live?Quote by: Marwood
In a heartbeat. What's the big deal with guys like this pastor? Are they waiting for a sign from God permitting them to live?
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
One man's "magic" words, is another's "fighting" words. The real fool is someone who thinks he can please everyone.Yeah, that's my assumption.Seems to me martydom is self-defeating. Suicidal even.
What's to be gained by killing yourself as a pastor when all it takes to survive are a few "magic" words?
What's that got to do with committing a martyr's suicide? The choice is clear for the pastor. He doesn't have to sacrifice his first born son as Abraham was tempted to do. He merely says a few of the right type of words. I suggest his pride is getting in the way. His believing he knows God's will for him that does not involve life says he's believing or listening to the opponent instead of God.One man's "magic" words, is another's "fighting" words. The real fool is someone who thinks he can please everyone.
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
The Pastor may have in mind Jesus' words in Matthew 10.33 'But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown before my Father in heaven.'
I should imagine it's impossible for an unbeliever to step into the shoes of someone who would die for their faith. At the forefront is a deep love of God with a spiritual connection so deep they would die rather than recant.
Men and women have been doing this for thousands of years, from the christians thrown to the lions in Rome, to the present day in many tyrannical countries.
In this 'me, me, me,' society that exists now, there is something noble, selfless and very courageous in this stand. I agree too ' All that is neccessaryfor evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.'
Why are you not instead saying 'what is it with these muslim regimes?'
Fair enough. From that viewpoint it must be very difficult to imagine why Nadarkhani would do such a thing. I don't think he's waiting for a sign, I think he's fully expecting to die. You may find that risible, I disagree.
Eliza: I would also challenge the claim that it's impossible for an unbeliever to understand this. I don't share the pastor's faith, but I can appreciate that a person might consider it necessary to challenge state tyranny, even in the face of execution.
Jesus fought against a literal interpretation of the law minus the intent of law's purpose. Is New Testament scripture Law without noting the intent of not only gaining life but an abundant life? Where is it said that G_d wants this pastor in Iran to die and NOT live? Should Abraham have slain his son? Shall God have his pastor slain to test the pastor and example this as a noble pursuit of abundant life?
On the contrary. I think it not much of a challenge to understand their delusion demands their vain sacrifice in death to prove themselves to themselves.I should imagine it's impossible for an unbeliever to step into the shoes of someone who would die for their faith. At the forefront is a deep love of God with a spiritual connection so deep they would die rather than recant.
Bernie Madoff had many eager to believe his fantasies.Men and women have been doing this for thousands of years, from the Christians thrown to the lions in Rome, to the present day in many tyrannical countries.
"If someone wants to stay in the business of being a psychic," he says, "they should simply ignore the skeptics." ~ Uri GellerI see the pastor as being selfish in his lack of skepticism regarding the knowledge of his True Will when he would have another cause him to make such a worthless gesture of vanity imagining Jesus's sacrifice was not sufficient to the task given Him.In this 'me, me, me,' society that exists now, there is something noble, selfless and very courageous in this stand.
If the pastor is such a good man then why is he doing nothing?I agree too ' All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.'
Equal in attitude be the Muslims and Christians regarding martyrdom as their following of God's will. For now the headlines determined the topic of the thread for the pastor with wife and child. Would the pastor be so willing to hold his denial if it was his child's or wife's lives under the knife for the pastor's silence? If so then why is his own life worth so much less than his child's? Martyrdom is a sick enterprise fostered by the delusion of an unfounded belief in an afterlife.Why are you not instead saying 'what is it with these Muslim regimes?'
When a belief in an afterlife benefits a man or woman's life then I see but minor problems but to be proactive in intentional causing by an act of vanity ones own death, by inaction even, THAT is the perversion. What God of Life requires death at ones own hand?
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
What of political martydom that actually leads to change.
Thich Quang Duc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thích Quảng Đức , was a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist monk who burned himself to death at a busy Saigon road intersection on 11 June 1963. Thích Quảng Đức was protesting against the Roman Catholic persecution of Buddhists by South Vietnam's Ngô Đ́nh Diệm Roman Catholic administration.
Đức's act increased international pressure on Catholic Diệm and led him to announce reforms with the intention of mollifying the Buddhists. However, the promised reforms were implemented either slowly or not at all, leading to a deterioration in the dispute. With protests continuing, the ARVN Special Forces loyal to Diệm's brother, Ngô Đ́nh Nhu, launched nationwide raids on Buddhist pagodas, seizing Thích Quảng Đức's heart and causing deaths and widespread damage. Several Buddhist monks followed Thích Quảng Đức's example and burned themselves to death. Eventually, an Army coup toppled and killed Diệm in November. The self-immolation is widely seen as the turning point of the Vietnamese Buddhist crisis which led to the change in regime.
In this case the monks had nothing to loose as the existing regime was quite happy to persecute and murder them anyway. And at least the monks death led to a change .
An act of mis-placed will to be sure. More impressive to me would have been for the Buddhist to use a ball peen hammer, drill, or Seppuku. The gunshot, the pills, the striking of a match, the easy acts that only require a second of willful act, these take one beyond the point of no return instantly requiring a bare minimum act of will. Implies doubt, as if martyrs are avoiding any chance of changing their minds.
Seems that impressing death on self, instead of an opponent, is counter to living an abundant life. Encountering death while trying to impress it on an opponent has more appeal for the lovers of life.
The OP sees a media about face on the charges against the pastor.
Iran state media put out a stunning report Saturday claiming that imprisoned Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani is facing the death sentence for rape and extortion, not for apostasy and refusing to renounce his religion, as his lawyer, human rights groups and Western news media have reported. State Media Reports Iranian Pastor Facing Execution For Rape, Not Religion | Fox News
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
I do not see it as an easy act. There is still the part of immersing yourself in petrol and lighting that match knowing what it will do does not seem all that easy a thing to do. Try just willingly putting your hand in a flame or striking it with a hammer, and the deed takes some strength and courage.
And what act of any kind can we do that at some point does not take us beyond the point of no return in some way.
Once you put that spoonfull of cereal in your mouth you either swallow or not, a point of no return is reached.
Is either method a garantee of success?Seems that impressing death on self, instead of an opponent, is counter to living an abundant life. Encountering death while trying to impress it on an opponent has more appeal for the lovers of life
When considering a quick death or a long drawn out affair is the painless preparation even relevant in assessing a martyr's courage? Would seem the slow painful death would give more meaning to the martyr's cause. At least that seems the historical precedent, eh?
And what act of any kind can we do that at some point does not take us beyond the point of no return in some way.
Once you put that spoonfull of cereal in your mouth you either swallow or not, a point of no return is reached.[/quote]I get that, but with a ball peen hammer comes the problem of when you come to, that you have to do it again. There is more effort involved than flipping a switch that allows electrical energy to kill a martyr. Even swallowing can be countered with a good reflux of the stomach contents.
Success? Whatever necessitates impressing death on self or opponent shows a failure of politics, a failure of diplomacy, or the failure of persuasion to resolve conflict.Is either method a guarantee of success?
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
Not having been there myself i can't say for sure. But I would think that there is nothing painless in preparing yourself for death. It's not a descision taken lightly.
When was the last time you took a good solid kick in the balls?. Did you look forward to it happening again?I get that, but with a ball peen hammer comes the problem of when you come to, that you have to do it again. There is more effort involved than flipping a switch that allows electrical energy to kill a martyr. Even swallowing can be countered with a good reflux of the stomach contents.
Not so. In the case of the budhists they chose to stay with their beliefs and also send a strong message. That there was nothing the regime could do that they were not prepared to face. And it certainly gained them the political backing that killing your enemies does not gain.Success? Whatever necessitates impressing death on self or opponent shows a failure of politics, a failure of diplomacy, or the failure of persuasion to resolve conflict
How would we be viewing the tresspasses of America against the middle east if the muslims chose self martydom instead of murder.
Perhaps I've implied such decisions are made lightly. If so, let me clarify that I would not make a decision regarding martyrdom and/or abortion lightly, should the occasion present itself which is out of the question regarding abortion. Yet I know of no woman who took THAT decision lightly. Is it a painful decision? Painful? Perhaps of a different sort of pain than physical pain, maybe.
I didn't advise how to correct a mishit now that you mention it. Where are you going here?When was the last time you took a good solid kick in the balls?. Did you look forward to it happening again?
Wait a minute. Are you saying that martyrdom is a success when a situation exists that necessitates an immolation or war? My ONLY point was that killing, of self or opponent, indicates failures of other means of resolving conflict. Are you pushing for martyrdom as the first line of conflict resolution?Not so. In the case of the Buddhists they chose to stay with their beliefs and also send a strong message. That there was nothing the regime could do that they were not prepared to face. And it certainly gained them the political backing that killing your enemies does not gain.
How would we be viewing the trespasses of America against the middle east if the Muslims chose self martyrdom instead of murder.
If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.
When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.
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