The IRA, Northern Ireland, repulicanism, etc

[Grogybear]

So as to avoid thread derailing.

Sorry, but the idea that the sectarian violence carried out by the IRA and the other side protestant terrorist groups can be disassociated with religion, and religious culture, is plainly nonsense. The fact that, with just a few exceptions, the Republican/Unionist divide is one built around regilious communities tells you everything you need to know about the IRA and the Orange scumbags.

You can divide them along religious lines and there's no question that that increases the violence and antagonism they hold for each other.

However, if you took away religion, there would still be fighting between them because the reason they are fighting each other isn't because of religion, but because one of them are based on a freedom fighting organisation and one of them is based on an organisation that is in favor of british occupation (given that the unionists are british that's not surprising).

Indeed this entire idea bandied about that the IRA, etc, are not religious terrorists, and that the 9/11 bombers were, because the IRA had clearly stated geo-political aims is a total false dichotomy. The Islamic terrorists do not bomb and kill because they feal they have religious motivation to do so. These people have perfectly clear, and often stated, geo-political motivations - primarily revolving around Saudi oil.

The ira are terrorists who are religious. Islamic terrorists are religious terrorists. There's a bit of blurring of the line in both camps but Islamic terrorism is more religious in nature than Irish republicanism.

As for killing dealers, I recall a few years ago members of the RIRA being picked up doing deals with Columbian drug barons and Jim McCann a former member of the PIRA who was in buisness with the prolific welsh drug smuggler Howard Marks.

There other public-spirited community efforts include shooting pizza delivery staff because a British Army base happened to among their clients. They also backed the Nazi regime in the Second World War, regardless of the consequences for the many hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Britain during that time.

So forgive me if I treat your assertion that these people are and were "freedom fighters" with a little scepticism; I remember well the targets the IRA chose. Don't take that as support for the other lot, be they the black and tans of early 20th century, the soldiers on Bloody Sunday or the vicious bunch who make up the orange lot.

There are/were two IRA's. One of them was an insurrection movement based on the Irish Republican Brotherhood, who's goal was to win back Ireland for the Irish. It has roots back to or near enough to the 19th century.

On the other hand, you have what the IRA became. We can trace many of our recent national heroes to the original IRA but we don't associate them with the kinds of people who, as you rightly pointed out kill pizza boys. They're different things.

Also, Chris, don't take it as if I support the current bunch of scum who purport to be freedom fighters. They've long since drifted from any kind of honour or valour associated with fighting for your freedom. They're just criminal, drug dealing, murdering scumbags.
I just don't like people who had legitimate cause to fight and did so in as fair a manner as one could hope for to be lumped in with what is now a criminal organisation.

[Diogenes]

freedom fighting organisation and one of them is based on an organisation that is in favor of british occupation

Historically that would be incorrect...as the Scots were the original inhabitants of Ireland...the Irish actually sailed up the coast from around what today is Portugal in about 2000BC as they were forced out of their land...the Irish ( rather their descendants ) pushed the Scots north and over to northern England.

Historically that would make the Scots freedom fighters and the Irish invaders.

( By the way I am both Irish and Scottish )

[Dan74]

I'm not sure why you included "republicanism" in the title. Pure Irish republicanism is very akin to Marxism/Socialism/Communism.

[Grogybear]

I'm not sure why you included "republicanism" in the title. Pure Irish republicanism is very akin to Marxism/Socialism/Communism.

There was a civil war.
One side was in favour of a peace treaty with britain, one wasn't. The one that wasn't was the marxist side, led by Michael Collins and was defeated.
They didn't want to accept what they thought was an appeasing gesture because the treaty still kept the 6 northern counties in British hands. They did that because they were republicans who wanted a united self-governing Ireland. I don't see how that's mutually exclusive from Communism.

[Grogybear]

Historically that would be incorrect...as the Scots were the original inhabitants of Ireland...the Irish actually sailed up the coast from around what today is Portugal in about 2000BC as they were forced out of their land...the Irish ( rather their descendants ) pushed the Scots north and over to northern England.

Historically that would make the Scots freedom fighters and the Irish invaders.

( By the way I am both Irish and Scottish )

I know that the Irish aren't actually Celts, and I'd read how they came from probably the basque region of spain but I've never really heard about the displaced natives when they got there. Source?

[Diogenes]

I know that the Irish aren't actually Celts, and I'd read how they came from probably the basque region of spain but I've never really heard about the displaced natives when they got there. Source?

No online source...I studied Irish history a long time ago as a project for school ( because I'm half-Irish ) ...that was about 40 years ago...long before there was public internet or a PC in every home.

And yes, modern-day Scots are the descendants of the original inhabitants of Ireland. Just like Picts are the original inhabitants of England...Caesar, in his writings on his conquests, called them Picts ( he coined the name ) because when he first came upon them they were farmers, who shaved their bodies and painted them blue.