The God of Love

[Anguspure]

Give me one good reason why God wouldn't arrange for a long life for every person in existence.

The Biblical God has not arranged for a long life for everybody because it's not necessary when he's already put eternal life on the table for every person in existence.
If you don't like the condition (acceptance and beleif in Jesus), if you want more control, more proof, more respect from Him or whatever, the offer remains and it has cost him dearly.

[B]John 1:10-13 (NIV)
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

[B]Romans 6:23 (NIV)
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Only an arrogant fool rejects an offer like this.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.
- Herbert Agar

[minorwork]

Only an arrogant fool rejects an offer like this.

Or one who has born an equal or greater cost at His side.

[minorwork]

so, we may not be able to "see" both of your neighbor's whole perspective of what is right and what is wrong to them but we can see that the stealing neighbor believes it is right to steal and the good Samaritan believes it is wrong.

If you want to see it so. I see it this way.

Don't do to others what you don't want them doing to you.

The thief has not complied with my edict -- that I conclude from observing his thieving action but I also keep in mind that he may not hold to that rule and that must be cleared up before I am to take on a carte blanche judgment of his mental state. I am a generous man and appreciate the neighbor ratting out the thief because now I can go to see if the thief needs anything else, inquire as to his health, family matters, and possible justification for needing the tools more than I. Hell he may have been borrowing them and intending to bring them back before I missed them. In life I generally find others MUCH too quick to jump to conclusions with much hearache and misery resulting from it. My guide before speaking in critical matters. In all matters really, though I do make exceptions for worthy individuals here at Volconvo.

Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

But lets say I determine he's a junkie and had sold the tools and run the profits up his arm without sharing. Then would I be moral (I really hate that word since it is so damn vague) to kick the snot of him until satisfied? What is the moral reaction to being thefted? I am but a child waiting to be learned from such an expert on morality as you lay claim to.

so how can other people not see part of their perspectives of right and wrong by their actions alone?

But when and how do we tell when we have the whole picture to enable a judgment of right or wrong? When is it finally morally ascertainable that a negative action or positive reaction is warranted in response on my part as a consequence to ANY person's actions?

Does your understanding of morality bring under its all seeing eye an examination of your every hour, every second, every motion, every thought of your waking life? It should.

so your statement of "I don't know what is right from wrong from your perspective,.." is not universally true. it only means that you are not able to see! not, that everyone is not able to see. you might argue that you haven't seen any of my actions to see part of my perspective, but not just by actions alone one can "see."

In honesty I must hold to seeing only actions and not the thoughts behind them unless I am allowed to probe the mind of the subject. But I DO see your point. Just that it is of questionable moral quality and is commonly practiced as such in idle chatter, better known as gossip, innuendo, and slander of assumptions based primarily on ignorance regarding other's morality and my neutrality of actions toward them.

yes. and your actions show your beliefs in what is right and what is wrong. (like how i explained above) also, your actions show your morality. furthermore, they show a lot more, like how you may treat females, since by guys actions, females choose who best suites them. the female chooses who is right for her by actions mostly.

But I only allow you to see my actions and it is your own beliefs that attach right and wrong to them. Those actions only show to you what you and others conclude according to your own definitions of morality. You know, I... I think we're on the same train now. All aboard!!

like i said, if someone tells me that a rapists is not immoral, then i have no choice but to judge that person as being immoral.

Why is not the act immoral? Such judgment as you put up as the gold standard has been shown time and time again to be unreliable in predicting who and what type of moral and immoral acts a person can be relied upon to hold to. Know who this is standing next to President Jimmy Carter's wife? So widely respected from noble actions that the President's wife had a photo taken with John Wayne Gacy, murderer and rapist of 33 teenage boys and young men between 1972 and 1978. Evidence you can't tell by actions what evil lurks in the hearts of men. But the Shadow knows. Need I mention the assumptions that priests give to those of your particular reliance on appearances for determining morality of a person?

i could even go as far as to say that the person who said it, may have a rapist mentality.

If your awareness is so in tune with a rapist's mentality you likely would so conclude. It's a mystery to me though what's in a rapist's mind that makes him such a brute. I bow to your insight. The Old Testament mentality approving of rapes I have never appreciated, so call me warped.

there is not only one way to see people's perspective like i pointed above. so, i am not a fortune teller, i wish i was 'cause that would make me a millionaire, but i am able to understand what is to psychoanalyze.

Come on. I fell out of the chair on that one. You haven't been able to capitalize the first letter of a sentence or press the quote button and you'd have us believe you have sufficient sense of responsibility and morality to swing a load like psychoanalyzing? See what its like living under your judging morality by appearances? I am fully capable of living by your definition of morality that allows appearances to make judgments though it is not the most moral thing I've done today.

you make it seem like i'm just speaking my opinion with out taking in consideration the opinions of whom i'm speaking to. when what the responder responds to me has a lot of information regarding their morals.

You gotta' cut that out. I 'bout got floor burns on both of those last ones.

I know you're doing the best you can. Can you give me the same consideration of my doing my best? How about the other readers? Can you capitalize and quote properly? You expose yourself by making those omissions of good by failing to do so.

wow, you just went somewhere else with this. still, i will try to answer to this by staying in subject. i do embrace human universals so long as they are for the good. if i had to join a "lynch mob", i would to fight for the good. i would to just protect myself and the people that i love. just like you would to protect your mother from evil people. just like you would give your life for your mother. when i was a younger, i did get into fights with other students in school. but i always fought to protect myself or to protect my family. i never did it for just pure pleasure of hurting people or due to peer pressure from others. so if a lynch mob was to try to hurt my family or myself, i would join a lynch mob to fight that lynch mob. that would be the right thing to do. what is right about just dying with out a fight to set an example? like people like martin luther king and gandhi died for a good cause and to set an example.

They did NOT die for a good cause. They were killed by their assassins for what THEY took to be a good cause. I'll go out on a limb and guess that King and Gandhi both were likely surprised and would rather not have died in such a manner. You are totally wrong in your approach of that example.

I went with cultural universals because you seemed to pay some homage to agreements of cultural groups relative mores (morality) on appropriateness, or not, of specific actions. My intent was staying with your theme, supporting and expanding on it by providing evidence for it. Trying to help you out. The God of Love was strong with me and the keyboard when I wrote that.

regarding your video, i don't really know what you are trying to imply there. i don't see the point in that video regarding morals.

It had to do with your cultural agreement sense of morality, but taken as is the way of cultural universals that all people of all cultures have the universals in common. Sure it can be disputed but that's Brown's hypothesis and it has been used quite a bit in Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate; The Modern Denial of Human Nature. I like Steven. Here be a written list, odd that I don't spy religion or God but do find three related, phonetically anyway, to morality. Human Universals

• moral sentiments
• moral sentiments, limited effective range of
• morphemes

[minorwork]

regarding your last sentence, you have to look at the LEADER (e.g. bin laden, Hitler) of the religious movements morals to be able to understand if it's really true religion behind it or just a crazy corrupt powerful manipulating leader using religion as a lure to brainwash. religion does not have anything to do with that. if we take a look at the bible really close and separate the good and the bad, we will see that there is more good than bad. and that is what one needs to pay real close attention to. just because it may be 99.9% moral, does not mean the bible teaches immorality. just because someone sees an immoral paragraph in the bible, does not make the whole bible moot. the goal is not to see the bible as 100% true, but to see only the good. same with the bible, same with science. same with morals and everything else.
nobody ever said that all priests are moral. sure, there is good and there is evil. those priests need to pay and will pay for their sins though. this just reminds me, again, that people make things too complicated or that they don't know what to do. this also reminds me how humans are social animals and they need a "leader" to show them the way. and this is also why a lot of them fall under corruption. in this sense, i guess people need to be guided.... what god tries to do. but that is another issue.

Then guide them and quit beating around the bush. If you insist on using those lame modifiers, in your habitual fashion "...really true religion..." and cannot catch yourself doing so for Christ sake give the distinction at some time or other. Refer to the two ways that Cain and Abel worshiped God and why one was true and the other really true, give the consequences of each as the moral of that story since it embodies, as it does in other stories in the Bible, of the distinction between true religion and religion. I'm not liking stripping you bare so you can see your nakedness. That Adam/Eve chimera had similar issues. Once its/their eyes were opened it/they freaked big time, felt the heat, and had to hot foot it out of their home before they/it really got in trouble with that map to the rear entrance. Once out that East entrance it was like that old Maine saying, "You can't get there from here." They left the maps to the other entrances and couldn't get back in the way they came. Have you seen that map?

you seem to be jumping from subject to subject like a grasshopper looking for food. of course, my main point to what you replied to was that a rapist has no morals. so if i admit that a raping priest has no morals, what then? are you going to say something else about "religion?" or are you going to admit that raping is immoral?

That one. The act of raping is immoral.

but remember, i am waiting for you to prove that a raper has morals. to this point, you haven't done so.

So??? When it comes to using the quote button and capitalizing, you haven't done so either.

John Wayne Gacy was a serial raper and murderer. Yet he did moral acts. So many and so evidently moral he was honored by a photo set with the First Lady. I'll not prove anything. I might persuade and that's it. I do not know what is going on with those serial killers and rapists. I do know they can do acts that are considered moral. Doesn't everybody commit moral and immoral acts? I can't answer your question about rapists morality but to say I judge actions and if such as they cannot control their actions enough to mind their own business then to hell with them after due process.

Morality. I'd rather not even use the word or its cousins. Though I am curious of what Brown says about those universals that involve morality.
Cultural universal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you like speaking for others don't you? also, WTF does traveling to brutal areas of Africa or becoming a priest have to do with what you said? dude, you make it seem like you have no choice even if you where to move to brutal areas or if you were to become a priest (though that makes sense why you say what you say, subconsciously). that says a lot about your morals though.

Sigmund Freud is your familiar now? Do you know how little science... none... is in psychology? At least use Jungian terms.

Have you never heard the phrase, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."? Or are you of the ilk advocating that dying for Jesus is the highest moral act imaginable?

so you are telling me that it is very hard to find a female that would want to sleep with you?

I've had my dry spells in the past.You?

you don't need to rape, only immoral losers do. e.g. just go out on a blind date to a club with snooky, or the like, and there you go. that is immoral to do though.

Now you tell me. What if I paid? That too?? Don't tell me then, if it is. "I ever tell you about when I lost my virginity? Well, wouldn't you know, her mother caught us. Didn't say much though, just went back to eatin' hay." Personally I think you're being a wet blanket on this part. You know Onan of the Bible invented masturbation? Wow. Invented it. Can you imagine the royalties that he's knocked out? Why I know I alone must have put his kids thru college.

not to mention the very high risk of getting gonorrhea (or other STD's). there are many females who are willing, it depends on your competence though. to rape is immoral, end of story.

Lordy what is it about preaching that brings the women flocking to get laid by a man of God. I thank the Lord for causing me to leave that line of work before things got REAL complicated.

here we go again. look at my first answer above. can't you also see that you are contradicting yourself too. did not you say that rapers have same morals as non-rapers?

No. Just said they are both sourced on their own definitions and necessities like yours and mine.

how do you know if a raper has morals or not when you are saying the following "Unless I was the rapist I'd have no way to tell the raper's thoughts."? you seem to be used to jumping from one subject to the next. is this an atheist thing or are you just confused?

The Lord told me it was a gift and to use it with caution. Lord knows I try. I don't know. Been my theme since we started jawing. Don't see how you can know either unless you're a rapist and I don't think you are but lots of folk have been fooled. Anybody can be fooled and that means me too.

I don't know what is on a raper's mind. Wanna' hear it again? If you have so much insight as to what a rapist is about, then go out and stop the bastards. I don't know what is on a priest's mind that makes him rape either and I don't intend celibacy as I think it not only immoral as a requirement to being a priest but may very well be a direct cause of those who so abused the young.

it seems like your entertainment is just debating for the sake of debating. have fun.
this is my last response here...or more precisely, towards you. just wasting time here. i could go do something more productive than to be entertaining someone childish.

I give you points when you make them with some validity but in general you're lacking clarity of your own position and its Biblical source, if indeed that is your source. Thanks for the comparison to children. God bless you in all your endeavors.

Matthew 18
1 At about the same time, the disciples came to Jesus asking, "Who gets the highest rank in God's kingdom?"
2-5For an answer Jesus called over a child, whom he stood in the middle of the room, and said, "I'm telling you, once and for all, that unless you return to square one and start over like children, you're not even going to get a look at the kingdom, let alone get in. Whoever becomes simple and elemental again, like this child, will rank high in God's kingdom. What's more, when you receive the childlike on my account, it's the same as receiving me. 6-7"But if you give them a hard time, bullying or taking advantage of their simple trust, you'll soon wish you hadn't. You'd be better off dropped in the middle of the lake with a millstone around your neck. Doom to the world for giving these God-believing children a hard time! Hard times are inevitable, but you don't have to make it worse—and it's doomsday to you if you do.

[Buzz62]

How arrogant it is to suppose one knows his God's purpose. How utterly presumptuous it is for man to write books explaining their God's laws. Furthermore, how incredibly self-centered is a God which demands our worship, without first providing iron-clad proof of its existence and dominion.

The Devil will mix truth with lies...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Abraham rooted religions.
- The Wholly Bible
- The Quaran
- The Torah and Talmud
Man's IMPOSITION of his own ideology and rules...upon HIMSELF.
Collections of wonderful and harmonious ideologies, intermixed with unthinkable horrors and absolute control mechanisms.

The Lie Of The Ages!

I've watched people make grandiose statements about how their God is this and their God is that...yet shortly there after, side-step they're own statement by revealing that their God has bestowed upon us free will, and that it generally stays out of our affairs. And then those who would seek to "save our souls" by convincing us evil non-believers (in a classical fashion I should add...), that their God is Love...which, instead of being swallowed...gets chewed up and spit out.

Ladies and gentlemen,
YOU ARE YOUR GOD!
YOU ARE SATIN!
You have powers that you cannot even begin to imagine yet.
You have failings that run as deep as your own souls.
You are chained by an ingenious mixture of truth and lies.

Quit trying to SAVE your souls...
And for your God's sake...FREE THEM!

[Angry Citizen]

@Angrycitizen

So how long does God allow man to live? How do you define a long life, that satiates man's desire to live forever? You'd want to die at 60, or 80, or 100? It would be, I dare say, only a handful who'd say "gladly" ok we're ready to die. So how much time would we need to settle our differences, two people can hardly agree on something, let alone nations thinking alike.

If I'm going to live the next 150 years, only to do nothing productive in this world then it doesn't really matter if I live the distance or die the next moment.

Still nobody wants to die, God of love would make us happy only if he lets us live forever, nothing lesser than that would do. If He does it, then Malthusian theory would be invoked. Then maybe God should have created the World large enough for an unthinkable amount of people to live here happily ever after. I can go on and on fantasizing.

That place is Heaven that we're talking about right now. Not a World whose time is running out like ours.

So you believe that everyone who dies before their time died because they were useless and 'unproductive'. I thought the point was to give people a choice in how to act? I fail to see how a tornado killing a five year old girl in Kansas is 'giving [her] a choice'.

[Angry Citizen]

Only an arrogant fool rejects an offer like this.

Or one who's quietly laughing at your nonsensical superstitions. I am not impressed with this 'god of love'. Even if Jesus did die on the cross, that does not entail 'love'. Loads of people die, get tortured, or undergo extreme hardship far in excess of Jesus' for their loved ones.

[Buzz62]

McCain endured torture for his whole country.
Does that mean John's an illegitimate son of Gawd too?
Do I really have to bend knee to him?

[Jack]

Only an arrogant fool rejects an offer like this.

But wait. Scientology and Hinduism among other religions offer us reincarnation and the Mormons claim we can become gods ourselves. There are some great offers for our afterlives being promoted by varying religions. What makes your better, unique or even real?

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.
- Herbert Agar

That could apply equally well and on a grander scale to the "truth" that gods most likely don't exist, that the natural world is all that there is.

[el ايمان]

McCain endured torture for his whole country.
Does that mean John's an illegitimate son of Gawd too?
Do I really have to bend knee to him?

Don't be ridiculous. He's a conservative.

[notthecheatr]

Only an arrogant fool rejects an offer like this.

Or anyone to whom the phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch" means anything.

[Offeror]

So you believe that everyone who dies before their time died because they were useless and 'unproductive'. I thought the point was to give people a choice in how to act? I fail to see how a tornado killing a five year old girl in Kansas is 'giving [her] a choice'.

That's not true that anybody who dies early, died because they were useless in some way. But the fact is that this remains true for the majority of people, people whom many of us consider merely like sheep who go with the flow. Indeed most people I've met in my life, and asked them for a specific reason for their living, or some ambition that would make their life worth it (and I'm talking about people with good education) they didn't have any answer to it. Most of them wanted some time to think about it.

No disrespect to the unprivileged sections of society, but how can we expect them to be any better?

Leaving this matter aside, we consider many stuff in this life to be important, so when this life ends prematurely we accuse God of depriving us. But God considers something else more important, thus he states in the Quran (2,155):

"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere."

Just think about it for a moment.

Unfortunately for us, God didn't create us to have fun here, quite the contrary, he was going to test us, some with poverty and some with wealth, some with health and some with disease, some with their children and others with death (of their loved ones).

Most of the people in the west, consider life as the thing, and thus they strive for getting the maximum fun out of it.

I could talk quite a lot more on it, but I'm feeling mentally exhausted right now. We'll talk about it later.