In the tribal village, justice is understood by all within the small group, and applied. In large nation-states, it is weakened, and various communities are no longer able to interpret their cultural perception of justice, and therefore are no longer able to see that it does in fact occur. True justice in large nations is a goal, not a perfect working model.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (white rice,)
What does justice mean to the environment or future generations? Like all other ideals, justice is about personal perception.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
As a newbie, I should warn readers I fall into the "right-wing- fundamental Christian" sort and view things through this lens. That said...
I disagree with the idea that justice is about personal perception. If that is true, Saddam was just in his actions, Hitler in his, bin Ladin in his, and so on. No, justice, as stated at the beginning of this thread, is a cardinal virtue. I believe this to mean a universal moral base from which we all ought to agree.
Now that is the key word, ought. What we humans do and what we ought to do is very different is it not??
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15
Ron
What we ought to do is personal opinion, as is what can be defined as just. In Hitler's eyes, and Saddam's eyes, and every other dictators, what they were doing was just. All the matters is who has the will and ability to enforce their version of justice.
(formerly G.Adams)
"You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality" ~ Ayn Rand
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
What we ought to do is personal opinion, as is what can be defined as just. In Hitler's eyes, and Saddam's eyes, and every other dictators, what they were doing was just. All the matters is who has the will and ability to enforce their version of justice.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
So anyone having enough power is applying justice by any action they choose? This does not make any sense to me. I am not one to subscribe to moral relativism and that is what is being described here- "It is justice if I say it is justice."
I believe there are moral absolutes, having remained absolutes throughout human history and not influenced by any cultural bias. I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history. Theft has always been "bad" behavior.If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality. The fact is that we all do believe some moralities are better than others.
The moment we say one morality is better than another, we are measuring both by some standard, saying one of them conforms to the standard more closely than the other. Keep in mind, now, that this standard is neither of the two, but rather the measuring rod in which we are applying the two moralities.
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15
Ron
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
Immortality: Liberty's final frontier
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Ron,)
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
What we ought to do is personal opinion, as is what can be defined as just. In Hitler's eyes, and Saddam's eyes, and every other dictators, what they were doing was just. All the matters is who has the will and ability to enforce their version of justice.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
So anyone having enough power is applying justice by any action they choose? This does not make any sense to me. I am not one to subscribe to moral relativism and that is what is being described here- "It is justice if I say it is justice."
I believe there are moral absolutes, having remained absolutes throughout human history and not influenced by any cultural bias. I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history. Theft has always been "bad" behavior.If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality. The fact is that we all do believe some moralities are better than others.
The moment we say one morality is better than another, we are measuring both by some standard, saying one of them conforms to the standard more closely than the other. Keep in mind, now, that this standard is neither of the two, but rather the measuring rod in which we are applying the two moralities.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
It is not justice if I say it is, it is justice if I make it justice. There is no such thing as right or wrong, good or bad, even if everyone in the world could agree to what is right/wrong.
IF God exists, and has set a universal code for what is right/wrong, then yes there clearly is universal values. But, because God has put them there, it is only right/wrong because God has the ability to enforce it.
Despite how it sounds, I personally do have codes and values for myself to live by, and if someone goes against what I feel is right or wrong I will fight it because
a) I'd feel guilty to not to
b) Because I can
But this is just my conscience, combined with my will to enforce what I feel is right.
(formerly G.Adams)
"You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality" ~ Ayn Rand
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I believe there are moral absolutes, having remained absolutes throughout human history and not influenced by any cultural bias. I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history. Theft has always been "bad" behavior.If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality. The fact is that we all do believe some moralities are better than others. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Yes Ron, here you have the basis of the whole thread of justice. But i agree with what some of Adams has to say. Religoen has in history been used as a weapon to enforce someone's vision of justice. Just like Hitler or Saddam. Or the US or UK government today.
You have to stand upon the Moral high ground, then do not move from there. The USA went to war, over weapons of mass destruction. Which i don't think anyone believes. Read my thread about the Iraq War or Adams thread about Euro and Oil. It mentions there. That the USA are commiting some of the very things, that they set out to stop. If they went to war for a lie, that is even worse. But this all boils down to duplicity of morality. They teach all school children. That it is bad to bully. But what does the USA do, for an example. It bullies poorer nations into agree with the WTO.
The basis of justice. Has to be simple. The law has to enforce justice. Not anything else. As it does now. Like you mention, theft is a bad thing. In every society. You will not find any place, where they say. It is ok to steal. The same applies i believe to murder. To put it simple, you are not allow to do anything to harm another person. Physically or financially.
The biggest problem that i see in the current system. Is the duel values. If i want to commit a crime. There is the police to stop me. But i happen to know, that companies and governments are breaking the laws left, right and centre. What do i have to do? I can't call the police. I have to sue. Write loads of letters and have loads of cash. This is not just.
What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (hello_caleb,)
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
justice is a lie...
justice is whatever the strongest claim is justice and nothing more...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
so i can kill your mom and get away with it?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Of course you can. Just ask President Bush.
I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with.
It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.
We have what amounts to an organized-crime gang government that routinely tramples people deliberately, and there is rarely any recourse unless you are really, really rich.
Justice is very personal and usually is delivered the same way.
Kill my children and hide - forever.
No "justice" - No peace.
There are at least twenty-two people that I will make every effort to kill if I am ever diagnosed with a terminal disease.
They have earned it but I let them live so I can take proper care of my six children and four grand-children.
I'm sixty and very healthy - lucky for them.
Temporary reprieve - at best.
Justice (vengence - the same thing) is mine - when I'm ready.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with.
It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Am I the only one on this board that thinks this view to be inaccurate? Perhaps I have strolled into the wrong group. The posts here lend themselves to doom and gloom mentality- there is no hope, there is no reason we are here, there is no reason to continue except to serve myself. I certainly do not share this world view. Anyone, anyone at all, agree with me, even a little?????
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15
Ron
I do in a way, I don't in others. There is no purpose for being on this earth except for the one you give yourself. That's not negative, that's neutral. And it's liberating in it's logical truth. The purpose I've given myself is to follow my conscience and live a life without regret. They don't always match up, but no regrets comes before my conscience.
I do believe their is hope for humanity, I'm a communist afterall, I have to believe there is or communism can't work. I believe that humanity will finally come to the conclusion that they can live fulfilling lives without doing it at the expense of others, which we currently do.
I don't however believe in universal values, or in justice, or in right or wrong. Its not negative, it's just realist. But, as my views on what is moral (again subjective, not universal) for a general majority, I'm happy. It doesn't make it universal though. To be universal, values would have to be instilled by a higher power, and I can't rely on that to be true. I guess you could argue that we naturally, without god, develop our own moralities, but that would be a result of nurture, so subjective.
Not to mention that there are some values that totally split people. I think that capital punishment is appalling and barbaric, and there are millions who agree with me, and millions who don't. And on something as fundamental as taking life, if their were universal values, you think that would be the biggie.
(formerly G.Adams)
"You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality" ~ Ayn Rand
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Ron,)
I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
In ancient Sparta, young soldiers were trained to steal for their food. If they were caught stealing, they were punished for their stupidity. If they were not caught, they were congratulated.
Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.
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