Law & Order

[darwinist]

The basis of this article is material crimes, but i do cover over crimes.

I think the first thing we have to do, is ask ourselves questions.

1) what make a person turn to crime?

2) How do you prevent crime?

3) How do you cure crime?


One

Poverty and Exclusion:-

http://www.unesco.org/most/povhome.htm

Reasons for crime:-

http://www.learn.co.uk/citizenship/onlinel...e/activity2.asp

Boredom:

Youth centres, used to be availbe to the youth. But even when i was an young. They started to close these centres. Now you just have gangs of youths on street corners. Bored, possible that they commit crime. For a dare, peer group pressure.

During my teenage years. There was very little crime. But now teenagers are on the rampage. why?

Well, I suppose there's a range of reasons. It might be that their families do not give them the security and good example they need.

http://www.unfpa.org/6billion/populationis.../generation.htm

Drugs and alcohol seem to figure more in young people's lives - involving more crime

Alcohol, at least in the United Kingdom. Is being more and more associated with anti social behaviour. More gangs, clans and groups. Fighting in the streets.
Football related violence. etc...

Two

Prevention and Cure?

http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/cp_index.htm

Prevention here, is really protection. Better protection of your propety and/or self. So it is not really prevention. Part of prevention i feel, has to be:-

Less gaps in society.

Less Poverty and Exclusion.

Three

Banned ads:

http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/comme...001/000080.html

Too some degree. The 'finger' has to be pointed at 'marketing'. Should these advertising agents be more controled, as there are in Sweden?

The Strawman arguement

For anyone who wishing to bat this my way:-

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/...punishment.html

Naturally the crimes we are talking about are anti-social acts. That is those which offend human feelings and which infringe the right of others to equality in freedom, and not the many actions which the penal code punishes simply because they offend against the privileges of the dominant classes.

But if you reduce the exclued. Then those remaining in the margial area's. Would i feel would be those who suffer from mental illness.

[The Fyrdman]

Teenagers arn't on the rampage. Your parents said the same about you, and their parents said the same about them. As a teenager myself, from a council estate, I'm telling you that theres nothing special happening. Its just that the papers, especially shit like the Sun, find it easier to whip up a storm over nothing rather than looking for important news, like the way our government distracted us from the almighty cockup over wmd's in Iraq by focusing on David Kelly's death.

The gun crime increase is different though, but could be dealt with by legalising most of the drugs (not heroin though). Then it'll come through legit channels, drive down the price and put the dealers out of business. No drug warfare, fewer killings, and lower prices means less drug related theft too.

[darwinist]

Hi Adams,

Well i looked up some figures. They seem to say the same thing as you. Whiched surpised me. The Newspapers are terrible. In fact media, is becoming more and more a form of entertainment. Shocking.

Here are some figures.

http://www.a4offenders.org.uk/new/sections...factsyoung.html

I was hoping to start some form of debate on the whole issue. :)

[castille]

We could always ban alcohol and return to moral Christian values....


Nah.

Crime isn't bad. Morality erodes slowly over time. Kids are having sex early, instead of beating each other up they're shooting each other. Consider it a technological upgrade.

Most stuffy academics come up with strange theories about poverty causing crime. I can tell you that rich kids do just as much crime as poor kids. I've had a friend who used to steal gel from Walmart, but I'm sure he could easily afford hair gel (especially when he kept blowing money at the casino).


You just have to get used to it. So maybe your society isn't as safe as it used to be during the Christian 1600s, but at least they don't hang you for pickpocketing anymore!


And I'm sure everyone here has committed a crime before. Theft, burgulary, low detail fraud, selling drugs/alcohol to underage people, etc etc.


Oh yeah G Adams, if you look around the council estate you might find some people who have a lot of money. They're the ones who cheat the government and get to live in cheap housing while working at un-taxed jobs.

[The Fyrdman]

There is the odd person doing that. But I'm not particularly in support of the welfare state as it is. My friend has been working for two years now instead of going to college, and still isn't able to afford his own place (it's expensive as shit here to get a place). The cheapest he can find is £70 a week in rent, and its a dump, and he earns (if he does overtime and saturday's) he gets £130 a week. Then he's gotta pay for water, electricity, food etc But if he was on the dole, he'd be sorted out. He doesn't want to stop working, but having that kind of situation is just insulting. And the thing that makes it worse is that he's done his apprenticeship in trade in demand, something the government keeps asking people to get into, yet he's being fucked over for doing so.

However, the council estates around my area filled up with people on the dole when all the heavy industry closed down. Ten years before they were appealing from people around the UK and Ireland to come here for jobs, they needed the labour, and then all the jobs went. They were told back then that it was a secure job for life. And now they have nothing. They spent years, often their entire working life, usually from fresh out of school, in this job, thinking it was a decent and stable income for their family. And then the jobs went. They were all fucked. So I really don't mind paying them dole money out of my taxes, they were casualties of the capitalist system, and they deserve some assistance.

[darwinist]

Catille

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Crime isn&#39;t bad. Morality erodes slowly over time. Kids are having sex early, instead of beating each other up they&#39;re shooting each other. Consider it a technological upgrade.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Yes morality erodes slowly over time. Why is that, do you think?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Most stuffy academics come up with strange theories about poverty causing crime. I can tell you that rich kids do just as much crime as poor kids. I&#39;ve had a friend who used to steal gel from Walmart, but I&#39;m sure he could easily afford hair gel (especially when he kept blowing money at the casino).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I am not a stuffy academic. This is not a strange theory. It is based on some facts. Some criminals are made, not born. Just like terroist. It comes down to the treatment syndrome. If you treat everyone like a criminal, then what you get are criminals. Just like the police states, that the USA and UK. Are slowly turning into. The more you take away, nomal peoples rights. The more who are going to turn to &#39;fighting&#39; against the government, to retain those rights. The USA and UK, did not have &#39;civil wars&#39; for nothing&#33; Or did there?
Where is your proof that rich kids, do just as much crime as poor kids?
Ask your rich friend, why he steals gel from Walmart. I am sure the answer will be something like. &#39;Boredom&#39;, or &#39;for the kick/rush&#39;. I assume that he has had wealth his whole life. That he has never had to &#39;earn&#39; anything.
But i glad you mentioned the rich criminals. This is more for my justice thread. But it fits here as well. What happens to these rich people? Well lets look at UK newspapers. Robbie Williams can put one kg of coke up his nose. What happens, ole &#39;good old robbie&#39; the bad boy of pop. Naugthy boy. What happens to &#39;Joe Average&#39; for the same thing. 3-5 years&#33;

G.Adams
Yeah, the UK is fucked up&#33; I worked my ass off in England for 5 years. Overtime, etc. All i managed to do, was live, work and sleep. Oh i did manage to save a massive £200. In those 5 years. Yes i am off to a lux hoilday in the sun. Not&#33;. To this day, the working class. Are being treated like monkeys. There being paid peanuts.

[castille]

Heres some stuff you consider in your "life of poverty":

-Live with friends in an apartment. Or housesit (looking after peoples houses while they&#39;re on vacation). I live with friends during college days, and lived in a huge mansion during holidays (all I do is clean their car, prevent robberies, garden, walk the dog).

-Make your own food. Bread is cheap, buy bulk from your local discount store with friends to save. Water is cheap. You don&#39;t need anything else. Learn to live in poverty until you make enough money. Butter is for the rich. Become a vegetarian.

-Haggle for EVERYTHING. Department stores usually give clerks 15% discount power. I&#39;ve gotten discounts off food before, simply by politely asking for it (and suggesting the clerk could lose his job if his manager finds out he insulted a customer).

-Theres certain times when your food stores give out cheap food. They&#39;re usually close to expiry, but if you live in the West, expiry dates usually mean nothing.

-Buy everything from eBay. Software, books, mobile phones. Finished with your old games/phones? Sell them on ebay. I&#39;ve brought 4 mobile phones this year for only &#036;30 (since I resold used phones).

-When you pass a factory, ask if they have any stuff they&#39;re throwing away. Dig in peoples garbage - I&#39;ve seen &#036;1000 computer sets thrown out. Even if you don&#39;t need the set of 100 non-working cameras, people on ebay WILL buy it. If your European Imperial Bloodline prevents you from doing this, rip up your portrait of your noble ancestor and do it.

-If you&#39;re desperate, learn to gamble. Cheating at cards is easy if you have 10 fingers and 1 brain. Its difficult for the police to check, and you can usually do a quick game or two at local festivals without being noticed. Its not illegal (unless a policeman sees you).

[darwinist]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Heres some stuff you consider in your "life of poverty":

-Live with friends in an apartment. Or housesit (looking after peoples houses while they&#39;re on vacation). I live with friends during college days, and lived in a huge mansion during holidays (all I do is clean their car, prevent robberies, garden, walk the dog).

-Make your own food. Bread is cheap, buy bulk from your local discount store with friends to save. Water is cheap. You don&#39;t need anything else. Learn to live in poverty until you make enough money. Butter is for the rich. Become a vegetarian.

-Haggle for EVERYTHING. Department stores usually give clerks 15% discount power. I&#39;ve gotten discounts off food before, simply by politely asking for it (and suggesting the clerk could lose his job if his manager finds out he insulted a customer).

-Theres certain times when your food stores give out cheap food. They&#39;re usually close to expiry, but if you live in the West, expiry dates usually mean nothing.

-Buy everything from eBay. Software, books, mobile phones. Finished with your old games/phones? Sell them on ebay. I&#39;ve brought 4 mobile phones this year for only &#036;30 (since I resold used phones).

-When you pass a factory, ask if they have any stuff they&#39;re throwing away. Dig in peoples garbage - I&#39;ve seen &#036;1000 computer sets thrown out. Even if you don&#39;t need the set of 100 non-working cameras, people on ebay WILL buy it. If your European Imperial Bloodline prevents you from doing this, rip up your portrait of your noble ancestor and do it.

-If you&#39;re desperate, learn to gamble. Cheating at cards is easy if you have 10 fingers and 1 brain. Its difficult for the police to check, and you can usually do a quick game or two at local festivals without being noticed. Its not illegal (unless a policeman sees you).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Thanks on the poverty and crime tips. I think. :~)

But you didn&#39;t answer the questions i posted for you. Are you now trying to dodge the questions?

[castille]

Well, heres the answers to your holy questions:

MORALITY
I have no idea why morality erodes over time. Perhaps its the fact that we dont consider immoral. For example, sex 400 years ago was only for procreation. Today we do it for fun. Immoral? Yes, but we don&#39;t consider it to be.

RICH CRIMINALS
What better proof than living proof? I&#39;ve seen rich kids steal as much as poor kids. Rich kids do it for the excitement, poor kids do it for excitement too (in the West at least). Crime is fun because its illegal. What better way to encourage kids than to ban them from doing something?


Know the problem with statistics? First, you can&#39;t get statistics on crime. Can you give me the exact number of illegal gambling links in Germany? Or the number of petty thefts that have occured since 1997? Or the amount in cents of protection money collected in Kowloon fro 1997-2001?

[darwinist]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
MORALITY
I have no idea why morality erodes over time. Perhaps its the fact that we dont consider immoral. For example, sex 400 years ago was only for procreation. Today we do it for fun. Immoral? Yes, but we don&#39;t consider it to be.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Well let me try an answer. These are just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Nothing researched as of yet. Another debate, perhaps. Anyway to the point. In general each successive generation. Has been more econimally independant, also has had more far reaching education. Both these factors, lead to more people thinking for themselves. For a example, do we really belive in &#39;god&#39;. Do we want to keep these black slaves in america? (The cause of the civil war). etc.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
RICH CRIMINALS
What better proof than living proof? I&#39;ve seen rich kids steal as much as poor kids. Rich kids do it for the excitement, poor kids do it for excitement too (in the West at least). Crime is fun because its illegal. What better way to encourage kids than to ban them from doing something? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Yes i thought you may bat this answer back at me. I made the same mistake. When i thought that young people in the UK where commiting more crime today, then when i was there age. But when Adams pointed out to me, that this was not so. Then i found the crime figures, that prove that fact. It comes from the belief or media expose of these &#39;facts&#39;. You have already stated that one of your frieds who is rich, steals. So you being in those cirles, have seen a lot of rich people steal. I going to try to find out if this is a fact. Before i refute it again. Perhaps this will also give you food for thought.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Know the problem with statistics? First, you can&#39;t get statistics on crime. Can you give me the exact number of illegal gambling links in Germany? Or the number of petty thefts that have occured since 1997? Or the amount in cents of protection money collected in Kowloon fro 1997-2001?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Which planet are you from?

Statistics for crime:-
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

Illegal gambling links in Germany:-
http://www.linksandlaw.com/news-update4.htm

number of petty thefts that have occured since 1997.
What in the world?