Religion vs Science

[Univsouthfla]

Hi there, you seem to know a lot about the thoughts and motivations of this god person especially when it comes to free will so maybe you could help me with something.

Take a look at this and tell me why it doesn't accurately portray the style of "free will" that god gives us in reference to hell and salvation. Thanks.

Well the reason us Catholics believe in our religion is because we believe that what God proclaims the right path to salvation to be is the way to salvation. We believe, for various reasons, that Jesus was utilized by God to be a beacon towards that moral path that our God says is correct.

We have free will to choose whether or not we believe Jesus as being that beacon towards salvation. That is the fundamental element of Christianity, and if what we believe is true, we get in to Heaven. If one doesn't believe, which is clearly in your case, and Christianity turns out to be a true way of living, then you aren't a part of the club my friend.

This is what leads to the reason why I am Christian. The doctrines of Christianity aren't perfect, but in my searchings they seem to be the closest and truest thing to explaining the supernatural. And, if I am right, I have all to gain. If not, well then I am with the athiests in the after life.

[Zeebadee]

If the perfect book written by the perfect being for his less than perfect creations needs interpretation by those creations or worse yet, those creations can change the interpretation over time, then it's completely useless for anything but arguing about. Wanna argue some more?

LOL, hard to argue with someone that's so ignorant of the Bible. As far as I know, no on has ever claimed the Bible was written by "the perfect being", by which I assume you mean God. The Bible was written by man, and there are many Christians that don't believe it to be literally true.

Hate to be picky here, but what is less insane about an exclusive heaven for believers and endless nothing for atheists......

Seems pretty reasonable to me. Atheists expect this anyway, and, on the other hand, what's wrong with offering an incentive to draw in new customers? You've got free will, simply take the deal or leave it.

[SoylentGreen]

Seems pretty reasonable to me. .

If that seems reasonable to you, then I can do you a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn.

Atheists expect this anyway,

Atheists expect theists to go to heaven while they just fade away? You really haven't grasp the atheist concept yet, have you.

and, on the other hand, what's wrong with offering an incentive to draw in new customers? You've got free will, simply take the deal or leave it

I have met snake oil salesmen with the same attitude.

[Zeebadee]

If that seems reasonable to you, then I can do you a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn.

So, how much did you pay for it?

Atheists expect theists to go to heaven while they just fade away? You really haven't grasp the atheist concept yet, have you.

Are you an atheist? Do you expect that theists will go to heaven? If you do, doesn't that imply that you believe in heaven? Perhaps you could explain the "atheist concept" to me.

I have met snake oil salesmen with the same attitude.

Lol, how much did you buy?

[SoylentGreen]

So, how much did you pay for it?



Are you an atheist? Do you expect that theists will go to heaven? If you do, doesn't that imply that you believe in heaven? Perhaps you could explain the "atheist concept" to me.



Lol, how much did you buy?

Understand that I find the whole religious deal distasteful. It is a con game meant to keep the sheeple passive to authority nothing more.
As in our conversation in the other thread. I require a good reason to believe, as of yet I have not heard of one.

[minorwork]

Well the reason us Catholics believe in our religion is because we believe that what God proclaims the right path to salvation to be is the way to salvation. We believe, for various reasons, that Jesus was utilized by God to be a beacon towards that moral path that our God says is correct.

Would this be the Orthodox or the Roman club that is on the moral path that your God says is correct? No offense, but if Fred Phelps is in your club I wonder even more at the nature of the club. Mitt Romney in it too? Joe Lieberman?

We have free will to choose whether or not we believe Jesus as being that beacon towards salvation. That is the fundamental element of Christianity, and if what we believe is true, we get in to Heaven. If one doesn't believe, which is clearly in your case, and Christianity turns out to be a true way of living, then you aren't a part of the club my friend.

Sounds suspiciously like a bribe when you put it that way. Believe hard enough and you're saved from pain and rewarded in ecstasy. You consider those as choices?

This is what leads to the reason why I am Christian. The doctrines of Christianity aren't perfect, but in my searchings they seem to be the closest and truest thing to explaining the supernatural. And, if I am right, I have all to gain. If not, well then I am with the atheists in the after life.

You've certainly chosen the easiest way to self righteousness. Not like you have to believe AND be a vegan. What disciplines do you practice? Why? If sufficient belief is the critical step, why fast on Friday? Why take communion? Why go to church? If belief is sufficient to salvation.

You've no conception of heaven of sufficient size to contain many heavens? How are you to know whether you are in heaven? Why put off crossing the threshold until you've been buried?

Supernatural heresy. You've bought into witches, demons and such? Seen Daniel Day Lewis in The Crucible? Would you be able to stand on the side of such expressions of belief in witchcraft, demons and the Devil with a clear righteous conscience ? I'd hope you'd side with me and others who see ignorance, fear, jealousy, manipulation, conditioning, and arrogance instead of the supernatural at work in the Salem witch trials. Your supernatural demons veil the perversions of the human mind. Lust, greed, anger, attachment, and vanity.

Think ye not that this day and time are immune to such nonsense belief in transcendent evidence when but within the last 30 years such childish imaginings magnified by adult superstitions and coercions have wronged good people. Fell's Acre Day Care.

[Peter]

LOL, hard to argue with someone that's so ignorant of the Bible. As far as I know, no on has ever claimed the Bible was written by "the perfect being", by which I assume you mean God. The Bible was written by man, and there are many Christians that don't believe it to be literally true.

I rest my case.

[notthecheatr]

Free will.

If God is really omnipotent, he can create a world where there is no suffering and there is free will. If God can't create a world where there is no suffering yet there is free will, then he is not really omnipotent.

Perhaps you will say that it is logically impossible to have a world with free will and without suffering. Again, you forget that God is supposed to have designed this universe. He could have created humans without the potential to suffer. But supposing you are right, that God could not have created a world with free will and no suffering, then God is still directly to blame for suffering, as he should then have chosen to create a world without free will.

Of course, all of this assumes the popular meaning of "free will." I won't go into the scientific one, except to say that the scientific idea of free will renders the whole argument moot.

Because clearly sensory perception is supposed to tell us everything, right? Clearly you also don't believe in happiness, anger, sadness, joy, love, anguish, embarrassment, etc because it is intangible and a human construct.

Of course we "believe in" those things because we have directly experienced them.

You are obviously void of any understanding of specific religious thought. If you are gonna argue it then at least know your stuff. Catholics, and most Christians, believe in the idea that God has given us personal freedom and will not interfere in human affairs. How shitty life would be if God controlled everything we did...

Actually, considering that God is proposed to be both all-knowing, omnipotent, and all-good, life would probably be pretty good. Dull, perhaps, but at least void of suffering. In fact, God could even remove boredom from our minds, so then it wouldn't even be dull!

I'm aware of mainstream religious thought, but I think mainstream religious thought is flawed in its premises, logic, and conclusions, which is why we have these debates in the first place.

Freewill... again. On the contrary, what point would there be if God did not create people meant to contemplate their being and existence? He would be pretty damn bored.

A point I can actually concede, perhaps only because you swore. I love it when a believer swears.

What's interesting is that you seem to desire, should a god exist, for a manipulative and controlled existence. You purport that every religion is like this, and quite the contrary is true.

Actually, existence is already manipulated and controlled, in a sense. We have no control over the natural laws of the universe; they control us. God or no God, we are most surely not in control! I think what my esteemed fellow forumer, and I, would want, were a God to exist, is a more hospitable home world. Neither the universe at large, nor even much of earth itself, are conducive to safe, healthy, let alone comfortable, human life. One would almost think that there is no God who can control the natural elements, or that if there is, he's not a good God! Perhaps the universe really is controlled by an evil God, as argued here:

YouTube - The Problem of Good: Part 1 of 4

[tye275]

Freewill is a terrible answer Univsouthfla. What if we didn't want freewill? We didn't get a choice in that did we. It would suck without freewill but my point is we did not get a say in our freedom which contradicts freewill.
FREEWILL: 1. free choice; voluntary decision. (The Pocket Maquarie Dictionary)
Did we volunteer? Im quite sure there would've been no choice when god was creating the human body to feel pain. If thats what god did then im sorry but that is some cruel shit right there. What a guy!!! give us the brains to create weapons on mass scales and make humans able to feel a shitload of pain and suffering. Didn't think that one through aye god? really? if theres a god capable of creating everything then he would be smart enough to think of these KEY factors affecting our time on this earth. So by actually believing in god you're saying that he knowingly brought this suffering on us. I can't believe in such a cruel person. The universe is not under our control and therefore explains human kinds pain and suffering because it was all just a lucky break people!! we evolved this way to think and feel the way we do. Its all random and there is no sicko upstairs responsible for suffering. The universe doesn't have a brain making conscious decisions it is just cause and effect. Just accept it is out of our control i know that can be hard for a lot of people but thats just how it is. And another thing Univsouthfla i do believe in emotions because i experience them everyday. Got any photos of god lying around. There are photos of stars and planets and a there are a whole shitload of mathematical equations proving the expansion of the universe due to THE BIG BANG. What have you got champ? OOOHHH faith. Well faith don't prove shit my friend. PROOF: something that shows that a thing is either true or false. (The Pocket Maquarie Dictionary). Oh and i mustn't have any understanding of religious thought either. I ONLY DID ALL MY SCHOOLING AT CATHOLIC SCHOOLS!!! It pushed me the complete opposite way to which they were forcing me. Why? because even at a young age i could see the ridiculous amount of flaws. Absolutely delusional.

[Zeebadee]

LOL, the tinfoil hat guys are spending a lot of time and effort to criticize a God that they don't even believe exists!.

[tye275]

I needed to criticize god to get my point across mate. The sheer stupidity of it all pisses me off

[notthecheatr]

LOL, the tinfoil hat guys are spending a lot of time and effort to criticize a God that they don't even believe exists!.

It's important to us. There may not be a real God, but there is a concept of God that is very much alive and well among the masses, moving them to do irrational and sometimes inhumane things. Of course we should spend time arguing about this.