God must be crazy! if this be true!!--1

[Philip Lu]

Response: For starters, your concept of how one goes to Heaven or Hell is severely flawed. For doing a few evil things in your life does not make you destined for Hell or vice versa when doing good to go to heaven. For in islam, no one who believes in Allah is permanently punished by Hell. However, a person who always sinned but still believed in Allah will go to Hell temporarily for their sins, then granted paradise. Also, there are different levels of rewards in paradise. Some levels are better than others, though all levels are still great. Again, the level you end with depends on your deeds within your whole life, not part of it. So in short, Allah is just and your example is flawed, as it is not the way of Allah.

As for partial being unjust, not a dictionary in the world says so. Thus calling it unjust is your warped interpolation,not an act of injustice by Allah. As explained, Allah is partial in ways that are just, for being partial in some cases is justice. An example would be to showing more favoritism to your new born than to a stranger. Naturally, this is not an act of injustice and to state that such partial judgment is unjust is a reflection of your ill mannered ideology, not islam.

So God shows more favoritism to some people and not to others? That's unfair, as before this life, people have done nothing, and should therefore be equal. Also, "no one who believes in Allah is permanently punished". How about, those born in a Buddhist family that has never heard of Islam? There is no way someone like that could come to a conclusion one day that "I think I will convert to Islam, a religion I just made up that people worship half a globe around me". Therefore, Allah hates those who don't believe in him because they never had a choice to, and sends them to hell for it!

[Fatihah]

So God shows more favoritism to some people and not to others? That's unfair, as before this life, people have done nothing, and should therefore be equal. Also, "no one who believes in Allah is permanently punished". How about, those born in a Buddhist family that has never heard of Islam? There is no way someone like that could come to a conclusion one day that "I think I will convert to Islam, a religion I just made up that people worship half a globe around me". Therefore, Allah hates those who don't believe in him because they never had a choice to, and sends them to hell for it!

Response: Your child is shown more favoritism than a stranger. Thus according to your logic, you are unfair and being hypocritical. Secondly, even if someone lived without knowing what the qur'an or sunnah is, that still does not mean that they can't know the difference between good morals and bad morals, so they still would know islam, as Islam is a law based on the principle of good and bad morals. So the Buddhist would be judged and rewarded according to their deeds and still has the opportunity of entering paradise in the Hereafter. So there is no injustice.

[Philip Lu]

Response: It is not Allah's doing that people are born in different environments and different experiences, for Allah does not put you there. Due to circumstances created by society, one is born in their environment. If parents move to Africa and have a child, it is not the blame of Allah that the child is born in Africa because Allah did not force the parents to move. So your logic of an unjust God falls apart from the start. Secondly, Allah does not directly test a person as if they were a lab experiment like you suggest, but the test we get in life is a natural test, for the people and the environment in which we dwell in society is naturally filled with temptations and it is for us to avoid the temptation of doing wrong and live righteousness. And when Allah does tempt you to test you, it is always with something that is good, do there is no bias or injustice in the tests. And Allah always helps to guide those you are righteous and worship him so it doesn't matter what test you go through, for Allah has revealed the answer to past all test, which is to submit your will to Allah. Thus if you have the answer and fail anyway, then once again, the blame is on your disobedience, not an act of injustice from Allah. As for animals, animals are different from humans because they don't act on what's right and wrong but on instinct. So animals are not punished with hell.

In short and as demonstrated, Allah is, as the qur'an states, still the most compassionate and most benevolent.

I think you fail to understand how much nature and nurture have on the effect of a child, and that the conditions and environments a child is born in and the genes the child has are uncontrollable by the child. I'm going to assume your point of view in the next example. You have a child born to an Imam in a friendly, loving house where the child is taught to submit to Allah and believe what a good muslim should believe (no idea what that is though). On the other hand, you have a child born to a devout christian in the time of Pope Urban II, would grow up hating Islam and believing that wrestling Jerusalem from muslims would grant a free pass to heaven! I wouldn't say that a child born under these conditions would always become a muslim and a christian, respectively, but it's pretty close to certain.

[Fatihah]

I think you fail to understand how much nature and nurture have on the effect of a child, and that the conditions and environments a child is born in and the genes the child has are uncontrollable by the child. I'm going to assume your point of view in the next example. You have a child born to an Imam in a friendly, loving house where the child is taught to submit to Allah and believe what a good muslim should believe (no idea what that is though). On the other hand, you have a child born to a devout christian in the time of Pope Urban II, would grow up hating Islam and believing that wrestling Jerusalem from muslims would grant a free pass to heaven! I wouldn't say that a child born under these conditions would always become a muslim and a christian, respectively, but it's pretty close to certain.

Response: Again you miss the point that each child makes the decision to choose to accept what they believe, despite the different upbringing. Just because you are taught evil does not mean you have to choose evil. So if the child chooses evil, that is their own choosing, not an injustice from Allah, for Allah did not force them to choose.

Secondly, as you should know, it is possible for one to change their beliefs and turn their life around. So the child born to the devout Christian in example 2 can still repent and be granted paradise. Also, just because someone is raised a devoted Muslim does not mean that they will stay a devoted Muslim. For they may convert to the ideology of the child born to the devoted Christian in example 2. Lastly, to demonstrate the beautiful mercy of Allah, when one who is born in the manner of the child who was born to the devoted Christian in your example and that person turns to islam later, each and every previous sin is erased. This is the beautiful justice of Allah. For Allah understands the child's upbringing and how much of an influence it has. So the second such a child embraces islam, they begin with a clean slate. Once again demonstrating that Allah is most just.

[arX]

Lastly, to demonstrate the beautiful mercy of Allah, when one who is born in the manner of the child who was born to the devoted Christian in your example and that person turns to islam later, each and every previous sin is erased.

Of course, why else would rapists and murderers be so attracted to Allah's "beautiful mercy" spouted in U.S. jails. That must mean that you would embrace such filthy human beings as sinless and beacons of morality once they convert.

That "most just" Allah sure knows how to sell bullshit.

[Philip Lu]

Response: Again you miss the point that each child makes the decision to choose to accept what they believe, despite the different upbringing. Just because you are taught evil does not mean you have to choose evil. So if the child chooses evil, that is their own choosing, not an injustice from Allah, for Allah did not force them to choose.

Secondly, as you should know, it is possible for one to change their beliefs and turn their life around. So the child born to the devout Christian in example 2 can still repent and be granted paradise. Also, just because someone is raised a devoted Muslim does not mean that they will stay a devoted Muslim. For they may convert to the ideology of the child born to the devoted Christian in example 2. Lastly, to demonstrate the beautiful mercy of Allah, when one who is born in the manner of the child who was born to the devoted Christian in your example and that person turns to islam later, each and every previous sin is erased. This is the beautiful justice of Allah. For Allah understands the child's upbringing and how much of an influence it has. So the second such a child embraces islam, they begin with a clean slate. Once again demonstrating that Allah is most just.

A child has very little control on what they believe, especially in the past where information is not easily spread. Why is it that most children born into a devout christian household turn out to be christian and why is it that most children born in a devout islamic household turn out to be muslim? Is it that chance has made it so that most of these christian children are evil? And what if someone has never heard of islam, as I'm sure people in obscure parts of the globe haven't. Is it there fault that they don't convert to Islam, which they never heard of?

[Philip Lu]

Response: Your child is shown more favoritism than a stranger. Thus according to your logic, you are unfair and being hypocritical. Secondly, even if someone lived without knowing what the qur'an or sunnah is, that still does not mean that they can't know the difference between good morals and bad morals, so they still would know islam, as Islam is a law based on the principle of good and bad morals. So the Buddhist would be judged and rewarded according to their deeds and still has the opportunity of entering paradise in the Hereafter. So there is no injustice.

There is a difference between fair treatment and different treatment. For example (assuming a capitalist mindset), an employer pays a employee while non-employees are obviously not paid. Is it fair to give money to one and not the other? Yes. Is it fair to choose someone you love over another? Children are most efficiently cared for by their parents, who are predisposed to love their children (adopted children works, anyone who is under their care as a "child"). A child "pays" the parents love and a sense of meaning (even though most of this is natural, and a parent is merely being a parent). A child, unless a newborn, a parent has known for many years, and through this, has come to love the child (even newborns, because of the circumstances they come from, are loved). It is fair to take care of your child, than someone you don't even know (to certain degrees). Is it fair to say, however, that a stranger should be tortured whereas another stranger should be given all the delights in the world? If Allah exists, this is what he is doing.

[Fatihah]

There is a difference between fair treatment and different treatment. For example (assuming a capitalist mindset), an employer pays a employee while non-employees are obviously not paid. Is it fair to give money to one and not the other? Yes. Is it fair to choose someone you love over another? Children are most efficiently cared for by their parents, who are predisposed to love their children (adopted children works, anyone who is under their care as a "child"). A child "pays" the parents love and a sense of meaning (even though most of this is natural, and a parent is merely being a parent). A child, unless a newborn, a parent has known for many years, and through this, has come to love the child (even newborns, because of the circumstances they come from, are loved). It is fair to take care of your child, than someone you don't even know (to certain degrees). Is it fair to say, however, that a stranger should be tortured whereas another stranger should be given all the delights in the world? If Allah exists, this is what he is doing.

Response: You conclude your response with "If Allah exists, this is what he is doing". This makes no sense. For you can't conclude how one is acting unless they exist so you can draw a conclusion. So your whole response falls apart at the end, thus making your argument irrational on concluding what Allah does.

[Fatihah]

Of course, why else would rapists and murderers be so attracted to Allah's "beautiful mercy" spouted in U.S. jails. That must mean that you would embrace such filthy human beings as sinless and beacons of morality once they convert.

That "most just" Allah sure knows how to sell bullshit.

Response: If forgiving those who repent after being misguided and acting out of ignorance is BS to you, then you surely have a BS mindstate. A mindstate which you've obviously mastered.

[Fatihah]

A child has very little control on what they believe, especially in the past where information is not easily spread. Why is it that most children born into a devout christian household turn out to be christian and why is it that most children born in a devout islamic household turn out to be muslim? Is it that chance has made it so that most of these christian children are evil? And what if someone has never heard of islam, as I'm sure people in obscure parts of the globe haven't. Is it there fault that they don't convert to Islam, which they never heard of?

Response: A child does not have very little control of what they believe. If you had that problem as a child, that's your business. But your dilemma is not every child's dilemma, for it surely was not mine nor any child I know. Whatever a child believes is still a choice they made. The evil actions which a child carries out is still their choosing. And whatever a child or anyone does will be accounted for and rewarded according to their deeds appropriately by Allah in the Hereafter. Secondly, a deed is judged by its intent. So wrong doing is not considered wrong if you are not aware that it is wrong. So one who is not aware of islam will still be judged on the intent of their deeds. Simply seeking to do good in the way that Allah prescribes is islam. So you don't have to learn and study the qur'an and sunnah as a whole to be considered a Muslim if you are not aware of these things. Simply wanting to follow the will of Allah qualifies those who were never aware of the religion of islam as Muslims.

[Thanatos]

Threads merged as a housekeeping operation.

[do not respond]

[arX]

Response: If forgiving those who repent after being misguided and acting out of ignorance is BS to you, then you surely have a BS mindstate. A mindstate which you've obviously mastered.

So a non-Muslim can go torture, rape and murder babies but once he simply "repents" (of course only by taking the shahadah since, I assume, even the most rigourous of psychological analyses for correctional behaviour would be meaningless to you unless he converts to your religion) he is, just like that, a completely sinless human being.

Would you invite such a person to your home and amongst your family or children, if you had any?