Cherry Picking and Holy Books

[Peter]

Okay, I'm sorry. But I think it is too soon for ANOTHER topic on this.

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/philo...y-books-4.html

Killjoy!

[notthecheatr]

You have one of the more intelligent (Christian) views I've ever seen on scriptural validity in the abstract. However, you haven't mentioned any concrete doctrinal beliefs so I'm left wondering whether your actual beliefs on right and wrong reflect this wonderful intellectual position.

[seyorni]

Christians have to cherry pick. The Bibles full of contradictory teachings.

[theophilus]

Anyway, for the supposedly most perfect book ever written by the most perfect being in the universe it sure leaves lots to be desired don't you think?

If I were writing the Bible I would try to do so in such a way that its teachings would be clearer, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be better. In speaking of wisdom God says he wants us to

"seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures" Proverbs 2:4

God has written the Bible is such a way that we often have to work hard to find the truth. Since he always knows what is best then this must be better for us than making things plainer would be.

From what I can gather it's so open to "interpretation" and "context" that a person can pretty much decide it tells them anything they want to hear. Now that's pretty convenient for the parasitic priest class but it does squat for the regular guy who just wants instruction from the big boss without all the middlemen.

Anyone who has a Bible and knows how to read can study it for himself without needing any middleman.

You have one of the more intelligent (Christian) views I've ever seen on scriptural validity in the abstract. However, you haven't mentioned any concrete doctrinal beliefs so I'm left wondering whether your actual beliefs on right and wrong reflect this wonderful intellectual position.

If you want to know what I believe just read my blog:

Christian Doctrine Discussion, Debate Forums, Christian Blogs and Chat Rooms - theophilus

[Peter]

Anyone who has a Bible and knows how to read can study it for himself without needing any middleman.

And interpret it any way they want to justify anything they want. See, that's the big problem with the book.

[Philip Lu]

Anyone who has a Bible and knows how to read can study it for himself without needing any middleman.

Of course, it's just a coincidence that people in the Old South interpreted the bible to advocate slavery, and for Germans in the WWII era to interpret the bible to be anti-Semite, and today for the bible to be against homosexuality (while cherry picking the food restrictions). Of course, not all Christians do this, but I think that self-interpretation is largely missing.

[Cruella]

"Cherry Picking" threads merged.

[NoJingoLingo]

Here is Wikipedia's definition of cherry picking:

Cherry picking is the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

When Christians engage in online discussion of the Bible we are often accused of cherry picking by choosing Bible verses that support our postion and ignoring those that oppose it. Usually this takes the form of quoting some law found in the Old Testament and asking why we don't practice it. Since we consider all of the Bible, including the Old Testament, to be the Word of God this is a reasonable response and I will try to answer it.

God has given two kind of commands in the Bible. One kind consists of moral laws that are given to all people and are always in effect. Jesus said that these laws can be summarized in two commands:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

All of the other moral laws of the Bible are simply detailed instructions on how to carry out these commands.

In addition to giving universal commands that apply to everyone God also gives commands to specific individuals and groups that apply to them but to no one else. For example, he told Noah to build an ark to keep all life from being destroyed in the flood. This command was for Noah and his family alone and God never intended for anyone else to obey it.

After he had delivered the Israelites form slavery in Egypt he chose them to be his people and gave them laws which they were required to obey. These laws included all the moral laws which apply to everyone but they also include commands which weren't ever given to anyone else. The question is, which of these commands must we obey today and which were only for Israel and don't apply to us?

Israel was a nation but the Church isn't a nation but is a body of believers who are subject to the laws of the nations in which they live. A nation has the authority to enforce its laws and punish those who violate them, even executing them if their offenses are serious enough. A church doesn't have the authority to impose any kind of physical punishment but is limited to expelling from its membership those who continue in sin and refuse to repent. A nation has the right to engage in military activities to protect itself against other nations. Christians are engaged in warfare but it is spiritual, not physical. If church leaders in the past had kept this distinction in mind the Crusades and the Inquistion probably wouldn't have taken place.

God commanded the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices to atone for their sins and he established a priesthood to carry out these sacrifices. These sacrifices were intended to show what Christ would do when he died for our sins and now that he has done this they are no longer needed. The book of Hebrews explains how he fulfilled the sacrificial laws.

Many of the commands were intended to illustrate spiritual truths. For example, Deuteronomy 25:4 forbids muzzling an ox which is treading out grain. In 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:8 Paul quoted this command to show that Christians are to financially support those who work full time at preaching the gospel. When you read a command in the law you should think not just about its literal meaning but what spiritual truth it illustrates.

The fact that we are not required to follow some of the laws in the Bible doesn't mean that we shouldn't study them. Second Timothy 2:16,17 says,

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Before I tear into this I'd like to know, did you come up with this or copy and paste? It seems awfully familiar and doesn't conform to your usual writing style.

[theophilus]

Before I tear into this I'd like to know, did you come up with this or copy and paste? It seems awfully familiar and doesn't conform to your usual writing style.

All of is my work except for the quotes from Wilipedia and the Bible. I originally wrote it in my blog

Cherry picking - Christian Doctrine Discussion, Debate Forums, Christian Blogs and Chat Rooms

and copied it from there.

I didn't realize I had made enough post on this forum for anyone to know what my usual writing style is.

[NoJingoLingo]

When Christians engage in online discussion of the Bible we are often accused of cherry picking by choosing Bible verses that support our postion and ignoring those that oppose it. Usually this takes the form of quoting some law found in the Old Testament and asking why we don't practice it. Since we consider all of the Bible, including the Old Testament, to be the Word of God this is a reasonable response and I will try to answer it.

The criticism is not "usually" some law in the OT, it's usually anything one xian says compared to another or anything in the bible. But we'll probably get there so no need to dwell on it now.

God has given two kind of commands in the Bible. One kind consists of moral laws that are given to all people and are always in effect. Jesus said that these laws can be summarized in two commands:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

All of the other moral laws of the Bible are simply detailed instructions on how to carry out these commands.

That doesn't make those "other moral laws" meaningless. So what's your point? The passage you quote was a test by a Pharisee lawyer, not a diminuation of the laws into those two.

In addition to giving universal commands that apply to everyone God also gives commands to specific individuals and groups that apply to them but to no one else. For example, he told Noah to build an ark to keep all life from being destroyed in the flood. This command was for Noah and his family alone and God never intended for anyone else to obey it.

No one is suggesting otherwise. Now about those laws that apply to everyone...

After he had delivered the Israelites form slavery in Egypt he chose them to be his people and gave them laws which they were required to obey. These laws included all the moral laws which apply to everyone but they also include commands which weren't ever given to anyone else. The question is, which of these commands must we obey today and which were only for Israel and don't apply to us?

Yes? We're still waiting for something and you're dragging it out.

Israel was a nation but the Church isn't a nation but is a body of believers who are subject to the laws of the nations in which they live. A nation has the authority to enforce its laws and punish those who violate them, even executing them if their offenses are serious enough. A church doesn't have the authority to impose any kind of physical punishment but is limited to expelling from its membership those who continue in sin and refuse to repent. A nation has the right to engage in military activities to protect itself against other nations. Christians are engaged in warfare but it is spiritual, not physical. If church leaders in the past had kept this distinction in mind the Crusades and the Inquistion probably wouldn't have taken place.

Great, but they didn't so let's get on with it.

God commanded the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices to atone for their sins and he established a priesthood to carry out these sacrifices. These sacrifices were intended to show what Christ would do when he died for our sins and now that he has done this they are no longer needed. The book of Hebrews explains how he fulfilled the sacrificial laws.

Which laws are those, please list them in their entirety.

Many of the commands were intended to illustrate spiritual truths. For example, Deuteronomy 25:4 forbids muzzling an ox which is treading out grain. In 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:8 Paul quoted this command to show that Christians are to financially support those who work full time at preaching the gospel. When you read a command in the law you should think not just about its literal meaning but what spiritual truth it illustrates.

You're really boring me now... Let's get on with it.

The fact that we are not required to follow some of the laws in the Bible doesn't mean that we shouldn't study them. Second Timothy 2:16,17 says,

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work

If the some of the laws are no longer applicable then why study them? Why do I need to know exactly how to burn my lamb in sacrifice to god if I'm not required to do it?

Well, this is disappointing, I was sure you were going to list the laws we do and don't need to follow.

Go ahead and list them now. Thanks.

[theophilus]

If the some of the laws are no longer applicable then why study them? Why do I need to know exactly how to burn my lamb in sacrifice to god if I'm not required to do it?

Here is a link from my post that shows a few examples of how we can learn things from the law.

Lessons From the Law - Christian Doctrine Discussion, Debate Forums, Christian Blogs and Chat Rooms

Well, this is disappointing, I was sure you were going to list the laws we do and don't need to follow.

There are too many laws for me to list them all. All I was trying to do was provide guidelines to help when you are studying the Bible.

[NoJingoLingo]

Here is a link from my post that shows a few examples of how we can learn things from the law.

Lessons From the Law - Christian Doctrine Discussion, Debate Forums, Christian Blogs and Chat Rooms

There are too many laws for me to list them all. All I was trying to do was provide guidelines to help when you are studying the Bible.

Well, you're many years too late for that. I studied the bible long ago. So now take the time to list the laws so that we can examine whether your claims are valid or not. Unless you'd just prefer to admit that you're lying.