The Government's New Right to Track Your Every Move With GPS

[CMartucci]

Hmmm. Well, now I'm beginning to rethink my position that a reasonable person would expect privacy in his or her driveway. Prior to reading this thread, I also foolishly believed that a reasonable person would have a problem with the government being granted the power to monitor your every move whenever it wants to without the need for a search warrant...how naive I must be.

davidsupreme, I do not know why you wish to withdraw from this thread so quickly. Your argument is not convincing very many people, so I suggest you stick around. I am sure that if the article is accurate (which I have no reason to believe otherwise), then the tracking devices that the government are installing are being powered in some way...

And don't accuse people of not understanding how GPS's work without doing any research. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Here, enlighten yourself:

GPS Data Logger Car Tracking | GPS Will FOLLOW That Vehicle's PATH NOW

"120 hour life battery for continuous reliable tracking"
"Motion detection feature starts tracking with movement to conserve battery"

So, yes, this is possible.

And once again, 6 Billion people, we have about 300 million in the U.S, you are worried they gona "track you"? Seriously.

Umm...yes, that would be a legitimate concern. Why are you so sure they WON'T track you? After all, the law in California allows the government to track ANYONE, without the need to acquire a search warrant. Why NOT you? I don't think you really appreciate what a law like that means--what kind of precedent it sets and how the government can, and most likely will, abuse it.

[Muckraker]

I agree that planting a physical gps device on a person's car is probably overstepping a bit but I do not agree that a non-rich individual has any expectation of privacy on their driveway, in their car, or in their front yard.

After all, my driveway is right out there in public and anything I do on that driveway is in public. If I line up my marijuana plants on the driveway I will be arrested because non-blind individuals will see them sitting there. If I have a loud fight with my wife on the driveway people will see it and hear it. Like all public places, it's only really private if nobody is around.

Your car is also not private. It has big freakin' windows that makes it public. If you are molesting a kid in your car and somebody happens to look through one of those windows you are busted. If someone is screaming from inside a van that has all the windows boarded up you are busted.

Technically, your neighbor across the street could set up a rocking chair on the porch and watch your driveway 24x7 for the next 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. The neighbor could video tape the whole time and there is probably nothing you can do unless you bend an anti-stalking law and claim their action is malicious.

A cop can tail your car every time you get in it for 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. Officers can track you via helicopter or use traffic cameras to record your movements. I don't really see what the difference is other than gps bugs saving considerable amounts of money.

The bottom line is if somebody - anybody - wants to track your every move in public there is very little you can do to prevent it.

And any part of your property that is clearly visible from other public property, or another person's private property, is public in every respect save for a stranger being able to physically be on it. The sights, sounds, and smells are all free for the taking...unless you are rich and your property is gated.

[CMartucci]

Hello Muckraker. Your response is based on a gross misunderstanding of the law.

After all, my driveway is right out there in public and anything I do on that driveway is in public. If I line up my marijuana plants on the driveway I will be arrested because non-blind individuals will see them sitting there. If I have a loud fight with my wife on the driveway people will see it and hear it. Like all public places, it's only really private if nobody is around.

Okay, your driveway is NOT public in the sense that it is owned in common with your neighbors. Sure, if you have marijuana plants out in the open, you will be arrested for it because of the plain-view doctrine.. But this is, of course, the exception to the rule. Why is it an exception? Because all citizens (unless they are blind) are capable of using their eyes to look onto your property and determine whether or not you are doing something illegal--no special enhancement of the senses through the use of police technology is required. If such technology were used, any fruits of the search would be inadmissible in court without a warrant.

Your car is also not private. It has big freakin' windows that makes it public. If you are molesting a kid in your car and somebody happens to look through one of those windows you are busted. If someone is screaming from inside a van that has all the windows boarded up you are busted.

I'm sorry, but your car IS private. That is why it has doors with locks on it and in some cars, a security system. It is also why a police officer has no right to search your car without probable cause. And um, yes...molesting a child in plain view in your car is probable cause to arrest you...so is the sound of screaming.

Without probable cause, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN YOUR CAR.

Technically, your neighbor across the street could set up a rocking chair on the porch and watch your driveway 24x7 for the next 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. The neighbor could video tape the whole time and there is probably nothing you can do unless you bend an anti-stalking law and claim their action is malicious.

And if your neighbor was a cop, he could do the same thing. Like I said before, the police have a right to do what any other normal citizen can do, so long as they do not significantly improve their senses through the use of technology. But once again, I'm sorry, neither the police nor your next-door neighbor has the right to enter your property unwarranted unless you are clearly doing something illegal in plain view.

A cop can tail your car every time you get in it for 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. Officers can track you via helicopter or use traffic cameras to record your movements. I don't really see what the difference is other than gps bugs saving considerable amounts of money

.
Yes, a cop CAN tail you in your car. So can everyone other citizen. And yes, traffic cameras record our movements, but not on your private property...

The bottom line is if somebody - anybody - wants to track your every move in public there is very little you can do to prevent it.

Agreed! ...Oh, but...your driveway and your car aren't public. Sorry. :/

And any part of your property that is clearly visible from other public property, or another person's private property, is public in every respect save for a stranger being able to physically be on it. The sights, sounds, and smells are all free for the taking...unless you are rich and your property is gated.

So you DO understand that someone cannot physically be on your property, but for some bizarre reason, you seem to be under the impression that this can be for any other reason than that your property is private, not public. The fact that your private property is visible to most citizens does not make it public. Neither does the fact that a police officer is allowed to seize evidence or arrest you if you are doing something illegal in plain view. The plain-view doctrine is the exception which allows a police officer to enter your private property, not public. If the property were public, no exception would exist, and police officers would be permitted to pull you over and search your car for no reason at all. ...Luckily, this is not how the law works.

[The Cracken]

pwned

[The Cracken]

But seriously, I can't help but be appalled. Not shocked, however. If we continue to sit back and allow blatant intrusions into our privacy there is no limit to what we will suffer. I hope it's become apparent that our civil liberties in reality mean nothing when they are considered (wrongly) an obstruction to the authorities. The government has their foot in the door, and there is a fight ahead if we wish to stop them from opening it further.

[Muckraker]

Hello Muckraker. Your response is based on a gross misunderstanding of the law.

I am not claiming that the land outside my house is legally considered public. I am claiming that the only difference between my private driveway and public land is that people cannot legally walk on my driveway if I don't want them to. All other features of being public apply to my driveway.

Privacy inside your home, and in your bathroom, is different than privacy out in the open. For instance, when I go to the bathroom at my home behind the locked bathroom door I expect privacy. This means that strangers can't see me, smell me, and hopefully hear me. Am I to have that same expectation of privacy if I go to the bathroom in the middle of my driveway or in my car?

The privacy you have in your home, car, and property is against physical intrusion. That's it.

And the GPS unit is not supplying any data beyond what a human tail could provide. If the police put a 24x7 tail on your car then they will gather the exact same data that the gps unit does. In fact, they will collect much more information because they will see and hear what you are doing in addition to noting where you go.

So isn't simply following someone a greater intrusion of perceived privacy? Would you rather have someone put a gps in your car or a neighbor sitting on the porch videotaping the outside of your house and tailing your car?

[grandpa]

Out of hand, just out, of, hand....
What really makes me a bit sad is that you,
Grandpa, that usually show quite a deal of intellect and
understanding (you do not seem to believe in gods and
fairies and such) seem to think that the "New World
Order" is after you and you run in panic.

Where in the hell did I say that? If you're going to talk about "intellect and understanding," it would help if you would employ some of that yourself, and refrain from falsely attributing words to people.

So, does your intellect pernit you to understand the basic dangers here, or are you completely incapable of putting two and two together?
If you really want to understand the dangers but don't feel like doing back-breaking research, I will save you the trouble. Read the original post and think about the specific case mentioned. A man was tracked for the "awful crime" of possibly growing marijuana -- a relatively harmless plant. How was that benefitting me?

I have to ask you something, though: In what ways could the government's right to monitor me without cause, and without my approval, be mutually beneficial? Please explain.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

I am not claiming that the land outside my house
is legally considered public.
I am claiming that the only difference between my private
driveway and public land is that people cannot legally walk
on my driveway if I don't want them to.

Still, there's no need for sitting on the fence here. Walking over someone's driveway is very different from monitoring them via GPS.

Grandpa h.

[NoJingoLingo]

I agree that planting a physical gps device on a person's car is probably overstepping a bit but I do not agree that a non-rich individual has any expectation of privacy on their driveway, in their car, or in their front yard.

After all, my driveway is right out there in public and anything I do on that driveway is in public. If I line up my marijuana plants on the driveway I will be arrested because non-blind individuals will see them sitting there. If I have a loud fight with my wife on the driveway people will see it and hear it. Like all public places, it's only really private if nobody is around.

Your car is also not private. It has big freakin' windows that makes it public. If you are molesting a kid in your car and somebody happens to look through one of those windows you are busted. If someone is screaming from inside a van that has all the windows boarded up you are busted.

Technically, your neighbor across the street could set up a rocking chair on the porch and watch your driveway 24x7 for the next 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. The neighbor could video tape the whole time and there is probably nothing you can do unless you bend an anti-stalking law and claim their action is malicious.

A cop can tail your car every time you get in it for 20 years and there is nothing you can do about it. Officers can track you via helicopter or use traffic cameras to record your movements. I don't really see what the difference is other than gps bugs saving considerable amounts of money.

The bottom line is if somebody - anybody - wants to track your every move in public there is very little you can do to prevent it.

And any part of your property that is clearly visible from other public property, or another person's private property, is public in every respect save for a stranger being able to physically be on it. The sights, sounds, and smells are all free for the taking...unless you are rich and your property is gated.

Privacy is not limited only to what can be seen.

[grandpa]

Privacy is not limited only to what can be seen.

Many are morons when it comes to privacy, frankly. They'll develop unnecessarily convoluted standards. For example, some might object to e-mail spam but think the government should be able to monitor people accused of growing pot. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Grandpa h.

[DavidSupreme]

Umm...yes, that would be a legitimate concern. Why are you so sure they WON'T track you? After all, the law in California allows the government to track ANYONE, without the need to acquire a search warrant. Why NOT you? I don't think you really appreciate what a law like that means--what kind of precedent it sets and how the government can, and most likely will, abuse it.

Fine, I have a look once and awhile, but only because of Voldermort ...

Now, so what is the problem with "them" tracking me? The only ones that would be worried or complain would be criminals, wouldn't it? They can track me all they want, I am not criminal, I do nothing wrong, if "they" want to know where I am, SO WHAT?

[Muckraker]

Still, there's no need for sitting on the fence here. Walking over someone's driveway is very different from monitoring them via GPS.

Grandpa h.

And what's the difference between gps monitoring of a vehicle and a 24x7 tail on a vehicle other than the fact that the 24x7 tail will provide large amounts of additional sensory data that gps monitoring cannot?

Privacy buffs always seem to get in a tizzy when it is proposed that a machine do a job with much greater efficiency than a human. Traffic cameras that mail everyone who speeds a ticket is an invasion of privacy but a single cop inefficiently patrolling the same spot of road and pulling people over one at a time is not an invasion of privacy.

As I said before, if the police want to know the whereabouts of your vehicle 24x7 they will do so via a full time tail. What's the difference?

And if there is no difference then how do you expect police to do their jobs if they are not legally allowed to watch someone they suspect has committed a crime?