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Thread: Jesus' last words.

  1. #37
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    My view of jesus was that he was a singularly unique itinerant spiritualist, influenced by not just semitic and jewish thought and culture, but by his travels to the east.....whose influence changed the world.

    If Mary was a virgin, (and she might've been) then Joseph, quick squirter that he was, came on the outside and she rubbed it in (thanks for that embarrassing explanation in "health class", Coach Everly).

    Do I believe in Dowsers, ESP and telekinetics, seances or palm readings?

    No...despite the fact that police detectives swear they have solved murders with their aid, the record for them finding water and oil well sites is phenomenal surpassing that of "high tech" methods, Uri Geller bends spoons (I know that one's a trick, LOL) and there are uncanny bits of entertainment in reading your mate''s horoscope.

    Why is Christianity so reviled? I argue his message of "love one another" and be charitable to one's neighbor and "store up your treasures in heaven rather than be materialistic" have been exploited by usurpers in all forms of government, especially those that are the most hostile to religion.

    "jesus was a liberal" I dont think so.... he said give your coat to your brother if he is cold, he didnt say establish a parasitic bureaucracy to demand your coat by martial force, keep most of it for its own self-perpetuation, and then mete out the remainder to groups it could best exploit through divisiveness and cultivated dependency. In other words, jesus gave his own life on the cross---not somebody elses's.

    But the same "enlightened, secular" socialists who would cruelly denounce religious believers and ridicule churches despite the good they do, while perverting his message of love, while being duped by the very system they claim is superior. These same people, calling religious faith "ignorant or primitive" are just as superstitious and flock to wiccan festivals and praise the da lai lama. Jesus deserves at least as much recognition even if they find it distasteful that his early followers found his example and philosphy so unique they deemed him supernatural. He may have seemed so, the roman empire was a completely opposite brutal time.

    Oh...and part of the leftist condemnation of religion stems from the claim that "religion has caused wars" but I argue it has alays been the ruling elite and their greed that has caused them to use religion as a rallying cry, striking at the very hearts and fears of their people in order to compell them into battle for their imperial gain.

    The bottom line is, all war is based upon powerful leaders' inhumanity towards his fellow man by coveting his possessions or territory.....................

    Yes, it takes two sides to make a war, but, too frequently it is a necessary aspect of the ancient struggle of good against evil.
    Evil is always the aggressor, always!

    Just like the phrase; "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing", many a good people and nation have had to stand up to evil aggression.

    To say that they fought for religion, would be, not only a misleading statement, but an ignorance.

    Most wars were fought for no other reason than to stop the evil aggressors................... like Hitler!


  2. #38
    Igneous Magma Logical's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Diogenes View Post
    That quote does not mean what you assume it does...god-inspired is not the same as infallibility.
    I suggest re-reading the passage. Your interpretation is incorrect. It clearly says, "God-breathed," not, "God-inspired." This specifically means that the scriptures are God's inaudible words.

    To call the bible fallible is to say that God is fallible. To say that the bible is wrong is to say that God is wrong.

    Tell me sir, are you calling God wrong or fallible?


  3. #39
    Hot Lava ChimneySweep's Avatar
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    Affluence:Three people told their view of what happened. Each version is true.
    Three different versions cannot all be true, as in actual truth, but they could be three different interpretations of what was said, according to those people's honestly-held recollections. This being the likely scenario, then obviously these are not "god-breathed" words, so much as "people-remembered" words. Fair enough.

    if one view had Jesus holding a gorilla
    Was that the old or new testament?

    I may write about the butterflies and how warm it was and you might notice the hot guys and muscles.
    Have we met before?


  4. #40
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    I suggest re-reading the passage. Your interpretation is incorrect. It clearly says, "God-breathed," not, "God-inspired." This specifically means that the scriptures are God's inaudible words.

    To call the bible fallible is to say that God is fallible. To say that the bible is wrong is to say that God is wrong.

    Tell me sir, are you calling God wrong or fallible?
    I suggest that you put your prejudice on hold so that you can read the passage as it was written. The only reason you don't see it is because of your obvious bias.

    This specifically means that the scriptures are God's inaudible words.
    Wrong...but then I would expect that from someone who clearly dislikes scripture and wants it to be in error to support that notion.


  5. #41
    Igneous Magma Logical's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Diogenes View Post
    I suggest that you put your prejudice on hold so that you can read the passage as it was written. The only reason you don't see it is because of your obvious bias.

    Wrong...but then I would expect that from someone who clearly dislikes scripture and wants it to be in error to support that notion.
    So rather than support your point you instead make inferences about me.

    Let me be clear.

    "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16
    God-breathed, based on the definition of breathed, which is uttered without voice, means God-uttered without voice. This means that the scriptures are God's own voiceless words.

    The scriptures are God's words. It is not up to interpretation unless you would like to change the English language.

    To be an asshole, Wrong, but then I would expect that from someone who clearly likes scripture and wants it to be correct to support that notion.


  6. #42
    Hot Lava ChimneySweep's Avatar
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    Logical and Diogenes: Both of you, on the naughty stool, now!

    You're both right and you're both wrong. Let me explain:

    "God-breathed" is, at best, an extremely vague term.Even if you google it's meaning (I did) you find that it's definition is still vague. Does it mean "inspired by god" or "interpreted from god's words" or "interpreted by man from what he believes god wants" or..
    It does, as you both say, depend on what you believe in the first place.
    The famous Bentley-Craig murder case is an example of this quandry. Bentley allegedly yelled to Craig "Let him have it Chris" before Craig shot a policeman during a burglary. Did he mean "give him the gun Chris" or "shoot him Chris".No-one knows. But Bentley was hung.


  7. #43
    Igneous Magma Logical's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: ChimneySweep View Post
    Logical and Diogenes: Both of you, on the naughty stool, now!

    You're both right and you're both wrong. Let me explain:

    "God-breathed" is, at best, an extremely vague term.Even if you google it's meaning (I did) you find that it's definition is still vague. Does it mean "inspired by god" or "interpreted from god's words" or "interpreted by man from what he believes god wants" or..
    It does, as you both say, depend on what you believe in the first place.
    The famous Bentley-Craig murder case is an example of this quandry. Bentley allegedly yelled to Craig "Let him have it Chris" before Craig shot a policeman during a burglary. Did he mean "give him the gun Chris" or "shoot him Chris".No-one knows. But Bentley was hung.
    Don't look up the meaning of God-breathed as it is warped by those who wish it to mean differently than it does. You want the definition of breathed. God-breathed just means that it is breathed by God.

    In my previous post I explained what the definition is and what it means for the passage.

    his means that the scriptures are God's own voiceless words.

    The scriptures are God's words. It is not up to interpretation unless you would like to change the English language.

    To be an asshole, Wrong, but then I would expect that from someone who clearly likes scripture and wants it to be correct to support that notion.



  8. #44
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    God-breathed, based on the definition of breathed, which is uttered without voice, means God-uttered without voice. This means that the scriptures are God's own voiceless words.

    The scriptures are God's words. It is not up to interpretation unless you would like to change the English language.

    To be an asshole, Wrong, but then I would expect that from someone who clearly likes scripture and wants it to be correct to support that notion.
    Wrong on every count...I have no vested interest in proving or disproving scripture...I have no feelings toward it one way or the other...unlike you.

    The only case where ' breathed ' takes precedence in scripture is when ' god breathed the breath of life into Adam ' ...it has nothing at all whatsoever to do with ' words '. The term refers to the spirit of god entering Adam...the scripture you keep misrepresenting is a reference that scripture is ' inspired ' by the spirit of god.

    Which can be taken two ways but in this case it refers to the assumption they were actually endowed with the spirit ...not that they were being told what to say...

    but this does not suggest infallibility...it suggests divine inspiration. That they were inspired to write the scriptures.

    Infallibility is a concept later adopted by the Catholic Church...early Christians had no concept of infallibility in regard to scripture.

    There is also a loss in translation that accounts for certain errors in English versions.

    Even the Catholic Church does not recognize the infallibility of translations...they only recognize the infallibility of the original manuscripts.

    Logical and Diogenes: Both of you, on the naughty stool, now!

    You're both right and you're both wrong. Let me explain:
    Actually as i just pointed out only he is wrong

    Don't look up the meaning of God-breathed as it is warped by those who wish it to mean differently than it does. You want the definition of breathed. God-breathed just means that it is breathed by God.
    OH gawd, not another conspiratorist...yes, the Church is engaged in a massive cover-up to hide the true meaning of ' breathed '.

    Last edited by Diogenes; 23rd May 2010 at 07:26 PM.

  9. #45
    Igneous Magma Logical's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Diogenes View Post
    Wrong on every count...I have no vested interest in proving or disproving scripture...I have no feelings toward it one way or the other...unlike you.
    What an ignorant thing to say. The end of my post was clearly a joke, though you are not joking. You honestly believe that you know everything. Who says that I care about the scripture. Other than you of course.

    The only case where ' breathed ' takes precedence in scripture is when ' god breathed the breath of life into Adam ' ...it has nothing at all whatsoever to do with ' words '. The term refers to the spirit of god entering Adam...the scripture you keep misrepresenting is a reference that scripture is ' inspired ' by the spirit of god.
    Is English your first language? If not, you are forgiven. If so, I need to talk to your English teachers and get their licenses revoked.

    Even you must know that words have different forms and in these different forums they may have different meanings. The example you gave is an instance of breathed coming from it's infinitive, to breath. We are talking about breathed the adjective, as in God-breathed which is not a form of the verb.

    Citing a different word used in a different way shows nothing. Also, to show you that the passage is correct:

    2 Timothy 3:16 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

    Infallibility is a concept later adopted by the Catholic Church...early Christians had no concept of infallibility in regard to scripture.
    This directly contradicts this next quote. There are even inconsistencies in your own post.

    Even the Catholic Church does not recognize the infallibility of translations...they only recognize the infallibility of the original manuscripts.

    Actually as i just pointed out only he is wrong
    What an ignorant thing to say. I suppose I should suspect ignorance from the ignorant.

    OH gawd, not another conspiratorist...yes, the Church is engaged in a massive cover-up to hide the true meaning of ' breathed '.
    I told him not to look up God-breathed as he won't find a definition but only sites defending the bible by twisting words. I even told him to look up breathed. You need to work on your basic reading skills. Illiteracy is a great problem in the world.


  10. #46
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    Let's not make this personal, there's no need. Debate the topic and posted opinions only.

    [do not respond]



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  11. #47
    Amused Maryjane's Avatar
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    if they wanted to alter something they would have taken out the resurrection, as it was a bizarre occurrence to say the least. Must have been true.
    Without death and resurrection....what's the point? Wasn't resurrection the BIGGEST miracle of all?

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/



    If I'm the only witness to your madness offer me some words to balance out what I see and what I hear.
    10,000 Maniacs

  12. #48
    Igneous Magma Logical's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Maryjane View Post
    Without death and resurrection....what's the point? Wasn't resurrection the BIGGEST miracle of all?
    That and virgin birth. They both go to proving the idea of Christ and solidify the idea behind him. Otherwise he is just a man with a lot to say.


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