How the Palestinians could defeat Israel.

[grandpa]

Any argument that begins by suggesting that Israel is in
trouble in any way usually cues my "shut up and
walk away'o meter".
I deal with enough Zionists at school for whom even
suggesting that the side with the tanks, fighter jets, walls
and aggressive settlers might be better equipped to instigate a
peaceful solution than the side herded into ghettos with no
hope for a productive future is like saying "I like
terrorists".

There is virtually no debate in mainstream media on this topic. It argues overwhelmingly that Israel can do virtually anything it wants.

Grandpa h.

[scholardude]

There is virtually no debate in mainstream media on this topic. It argues overwhelmingly that Israel can do virtually anything it wants.

Grandpa h.

I agree, they can, which is why they are the ones in the position to secure a peaceful and livable future for both peoples.

[grandpa]

I agree, they can, which is why they are the
ones in the position to secure a peaceful and livable
future for both peoples.

Problem is, they're apparently not in a better psychological position to deal with it.

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Of course I think rocket attacks and suicide bombings are reprehensible, but I also recognize that these are the natural consequence of a people systematically marginalized and terrorized themselves. Can anyone really say that they would not be motivated to lash out, to do anything to punch your enemy in the mouth when faced with the hopeless and destitute situation many Palestinians find themselves in?

Bart's original post is interesting. Ultimately, though, it's difficult to expect a people who feel as if they've been purposefully and systematically done away with as an entity to make the first moves for a real solution. Israel has all the power, all the resources, and yet still forces the Palestinians back with settlements and walls rather than offering them the hope they need to even desire peace.

This is a gross oversimplification of a regional and global problem. Israel alone can not solve it. She needs partners in the Middle East and elsewhere to help resolve one of the thorniest obstacles to a comprehensive settlement: the Right of Return for displaced Palestinians and the demographic future of Israel itself. That issue alone requires a regional diplomatic settlement that will please no one. Most Palestinians living in the Diaspora will never reclaim their land in modern day Israel. And Israel will never agree to a political system whereby Israeli Jews are the political minority (pick one Arab state that would stand by while Arabs became the political minority and I'll show you a mirage).

A secure and thriving independent Palestinian state next to Israel can only succeed if these larger regional and political issues are settled. Will the more prosperous Middle East states pony up money to help permanently settle most of the Palestinian Diaspora overseas or in the new Palestinian State? Will they accept Israeli money to do the same? Or will they grasp this pipe dream to the bitter end and cause the Palestinians to do the same?

We must also recognize that rationalizing suicide bomb attacks as "natural consequences" of political marginalization and oppression by Israel does nothing--NOTHING--to improve the Palestinian's standing in the one nation that has the power to pressure Israel--America. Did killing Israeli athletes in Munich help Palestinian PR? Perhaps in Europe, but not here. Palestinians can scream "Israeli state terror!" every day for eternity but they won't change minds where they need to be changed with such negative publicity stunts. Segments of the American media share the blame, I will agree, but that too is partially caused by decades of suicide attacks around the world done in the name of Palestinian liberation.

I am not a supporter of Israel and have condemned every major Israeli incursion, repressive counterattack, wall, and illegal settlement since the last regional war in 1973. But I can't forget, and neither can any reasonable observer of the conflict, that Israel was attacked by land, sea, and air on several occasions prior to 1973 by nations sworn to her annihilation. Conditions have certainly changed since then--Israel is a military powerhouse now. Still, memories of those attacks--the last one a sneak attack on the most holy day of Yom Kippur--are the primary reason Israel built its military force.

Historical debates over who took whose land when and where, who snuffed out whose life unnecessarily, who finances whose cause from abroad only serve to prolong the agony and delay the diplomatic back room deals that will start the healing. Will the region's Arab and non-Arab Persian powers sign peace treaties with Israel in exchange for agreements on Right of Return and the Two State solution? Will Syria accept the return of the Golan Heights and Lebanon the return of Shebaa Farms? Will Iran cease its funding of Hezbollah and Hamas and no longer interfere in the national affairs of nations so far from its borders? Will Israeli and American moderates reign in the religious zealots on the West Bank? Will Iran do the same in the Bekaa Valley?

Let's keep the conflict in its proper regional and global perspective and refrain from making exclusive bad guys out of one party or another in this historical mess. The solution requires painful and dangerous political, historical, and territorial compromises for everyone. If you doubt me, ask the families of Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin about the price of diplomacy in that neighborhood.

[scholardude]

This is a gross oversimplification of a regional and global problem. Israel alone can not solve it.

Obviously it was, I was attempting to express my feelings in a couple paragraph post. I don't view one "side" as the bad guy, nor is one the good guy, history and current actions show that clearly. I'm simply stating that Israel cannot be presented as a victim in a situation in which it holds all the facets of power, nor can one expect the Palestinians to be anywhere near reasonable as a people in their current condition.

We must also recognize that rationalizing suicide bomb attacks as "natural consequences" of political marginalization and oppression by Israel does nothing--NOTHING--to improve the Palestinian's standing in the one nation that has the power to pressure Israel--America.

Fair enough, but if I'm a jobless, hopeless Palestinian who's known nothing of the U.S. besides what I've seen the results of, meaning support of essentially everything Israel does, I'm not likely to give a damn what americans think.

[The Decider]

Obviously it was, I was attempting to express my feelings in a couple paragraph post. I don't view one "side" as the bad guy, nor is one the good guy, history and current actions show that clearly. I'm simply stating that Israel cannot be presented as a victim in a situation in which it holds all the facets of power, nor can one expect the Palestinians to be anywhere near reasonable as a people in their current condition.

That's the problem with these Middle East debates--every post requires a book or you risk misunderstanding. The zealots on both sides have it rather easy.

Fair enough, but if I'm a jobless, hopeless Palestinian who's known nothing of the U.S. besides what I've seen the results of, meaning support of essentially everything Israel does, I'm not likely to give a damn what americans think.

I never expected that they would. Those who speak for them and manipulate them are quite different. They supply the explosives, figuratively and literally.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

If the bible told you to jump off a bridge...

…that was collapsing, would you jump off?

Thanks for the scientific input.

Grandpa h.

TR, I didn't answer Mr. Mxyzptlk's questions in detail for three reasons. The first is that they are entirely rhetorical. If Mr. Mxyzptlk wants to make a point, he should just make it rather than creating a quiz.

Are the questions “entirely rhetorical” if there is an expectation of an answer?

The second reason is I simply couldn't be bothered to go through them all--call me lazy and not interested. The third reason is that their purpose was to demonstrate some deficiencies in my character which Mr. Mxyzptlk judges that I have, and my moral failings are not the subject of this thread.

Actually, Mr. Barts, the questions were an attempt to inquire about the {unfairness} and {inequity} of your suggestion? After all, are you not of those who are always preaching and complaining about {unfairness} and { inequity?} Are you not of those who are always concerned about the abrogation of {rights?] Or is it that we should conclude that those complaints regarding {unfairness,} { inequity,} and the abrogation of {rights] are only reserved for those of your liking? Therefore, since it is that you do not like Israel, to hell with {unfairness,} { inequity,} and the abrogation of {rights?] To hell with the {unfairness} of suggesting the destruction of one while not the other? To hell with Israel’s {right] to self-preservation?

So, again, we are back to the same questions: Why should the Zionist dream end? Why not the Palestinian dream? Why should the Palestinians be allowed to destroy the Zionist dream and not vice versa? Why should the Palestinians have the {right] to destroy or kill the people of Israel and the people of Israel have no {right] to destroy or kill the people of Palestine? Why is it that Israel should allow the Palestinians to “slowly infiltrate” into their communities until they have increased enough to “gain de facto control over Israel” but the Palestinians should not allow Israel to wrest away the rest of the land? Is this the type of {equal rights} that you and others love to preach about? And if so, how is it {equal?} How is it {equal} that one should be allowed the {right] to destroy or kill the other and the other should not be allowed the same {right?] How is it {equal} that one should be allowed to “slowly infiltrate” into the communities and increase until they have gained de facto control but the other is not allowed to stop the infiltration? Is it that this is how {equal rights} works? Is it that Israel should not be allowed to defend her {right] to existence while the Palestinians are allowed to? Is it that Israel does not have the {right] of self-preservation? Is it that we should tie the hands of Israel while untying the hands of the Palestinians? Should Israel not be allowed to fight against those who wish to destroy her? Should the Palestinians not be allowed to fight against those who wish to destroy them?

Now, one cannot help it, that by inquiring about the unfairness and inequity of your suggestion, that it appears to you that such an inquiry is done for the sole purpose of demonstrating some deficiency in your character. That may very well be your opinion on the matter.




By the way, with the creation of your thread, have you not managed to do that which you are complaining about? Is it that you yourself are not trying to make a demonstration of a deficiency that you have seen in Israel? That Israel itself is so {deficient} in some way that it alone needs to be judged by the raging flames of destruction? That the Palestinians are so {flawless} that they should be exempt from facing the same raging flames of destruction?

If Mr. Mxyzptlk wants to start a thread about my character flaws, he should do so.

Was there some particular question that Mr. Mxyzptlk asked that you wanted an answer to?

Now Mr. Barts you know that starting a thread about another member is not allowed? What, are you trying to get one an infraction?

[Charlesuzoanya@]

Bart's suggestion works well in theory but we all know that in practice it will never pan out. Can you say extreme apartheid? Israel will cause the Palestinian people so much anguish that the seeds of an uprising will quickly be planted and then we will be back to the status quo ante.

I always wonder about how a subjugated group would act when they became powerful. Will they treat their former oppressors or others around them with dignity and kindness or will they take the easy path of becoming oppressors themselves? But wait; is that not the case with Israel?

The Palestinians are in a really shitty situation. The countries that matter couldn’t be bothered by their plight and the ones that care are unimaginative.

What Israel is doing is a crime and the developed world ought to be ashamed for letting it happen.

[Philip Lu]

Quote by: grandpa View Post
If the bible told you to jump off a bridge...


…that was collapsing, would you jump off?

which is a complete cop-out.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Some do, but more wish to not be silenced, bombed and starved by some oppressive, racist quasi-religious regime.

Grandpa h.

And Mr. Grandpa, should we conclude that you are referring to the Israelis? Or should we conclude that you are referring to the Palestinians?

Wow your a genius! Liberal minds never seem to amaze!

Maybe why you see the Palestinians hold onto illogical demand of the right of return!

Well, Mr. Hook, it is evident, that from the Palestinian Position, it is that such a demand is one that is not viewed as {illogical?} They and their supporters actually believe that it is quite {logical} to demand so? So who is {logical} and who is {illogical?} How do we decide?

Yeah, in the meantime Israel is looking less and less good to diaspora Jews, and even to a lot of Israelis, who are choosing to live elsewhere.

And this result of Jews and Israelis choosing to live elsewhere should continue to dispel the notion that the Palestinians have not analyzed the situation in “the rational strategic manner? “ It would appear that the Palestinian’s {primary} offensive weapon is working, albeit the level and magnitude of its effects are somewhat distorted by Time.

POST# 13
QUOTE = VIPER
“Well considering their primary offensive weapon is a guy who goes into a crowd and yells "Alalalalalalalalalaaa" and then goes BOOM I doubt they've analysed the situation in the rational, strategic manner you have.”

Sneer all you want, Hook, demographics are not in Israel's favour.

And judging from your comments, neither are you?

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

We all know they do not have the military power to defeat them, nor the political clout...not even the economic wherewithall...

And yet, from various comments on this thread it would appear that the Palestinians are defeating them? So what type of military power do the Palestinians not have?

in fact the only thing they have on their side is the stubbornness to stand in the face of impossible odds and be defiant to the end...

And yet, it is said that the Palestinians do not have “the military power to defeat them, nor the political clout...not even the economic wherewithal?“

which, I'd like to think, we'd all be under similar circumstances ...and not compliant, docile, and subordinate.

You’d be surprised?

The only way the Palestinians could defeat Israel would be to cater to the heart-strings of humanity...by making a profound statement...whereby the world would have to listen.

In other words, an appeal to emotion that is so strong that it moves some aspects of humanity to well up with so much emotion that they feel more compassion for the Palestinians than they do for Israel? An appeal to emotion that is so strong that these will ignore Acts perpetrated against Israel by the Palestinians and their supporters? An appeal to emotion that is so strong that as these ignore Acts perpetrated against Israel by the Palestinians and their supporters, they will move against Israel and her supporters? It looks like its been working?

Secondly, Mr. Diogenes, is this how your equality works? Why not a suggestion for Israel? Why don’t we suggest a way for Israel to defeat the Palestinians? Why not make a profound statement whereby the world would have to listen to Israel’s cries? Does Israel not deserve to live? Why should destruction and defeat only be for Israel?

Something along the lines of a nation-wide hunger/work strike...a spectacle...gathering together in some large space with candles and bottled water and declaring that their needs will either be addressed or they will die trying...

Or just simply create a spectacle of events on an aid ship?

I. Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis

II. Deadly Israeli Raid Draws Condemnation

the world would have to set up...and would.

..for Israel?

Secondly, which {world?} The Arab {world} or what?

Yes, it has been tried before, but not organized as a major spectacle...an event...on a nation-wide scale.

…to free Israel?

I really don't see this as a viable solution...or even a realistic one...and it would simply put Israel into a much stronger position to abuse the Palestinians under the cover of their nation.

Verses the Palestinians who have been abusing the Israelis from under the cover of their nation?

Israel could have resolved this situation easily...as I said in other threads...simply by being the good guy...helping the Palestinians to create employment, hospitals, infrastructure, etc...even funding it at cost...
by providing a better life for the Palestinians they would effectively gain their support and eventually the Palestinians would likely opt in to an Israeli State willingly.

And what if the Israelis do not wish for the Palestinians to “opt in to an Israeli State?” Is that not their {right?] Is it not their state? Is it not their home? Do they not have the {right] to choose who or what they will allow or not allow into their home? Should they not be allowed to exercise such a {right?}

Secondly, what about the Palestinians? What if they do not wish to “opt in to an Israeli State?” Is that not their {right?] Can they not choose not to “opt in to an Israeli State?” Should they not be allowed to exercise such a {right?}

It's simple...you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

….than with fecal matter?

III. Do you catch more flies with sugar than you do with, ah, fecal matter?

if you take a man who lives in a box, jobless, etc....and you give him a home, a job, etc....you essentially give him more to lose....and more to keep...a reason to comply...

the Palestinians have nothing to lose and nothing to keep...no reason to comply.

And yet, it is that the system is full of people with “more to lose” “more to keep” and a “reason to comply,” who have failed to comply?

IV. Madoff Charged in $50 Billion Fraud at Advisory Firm

V. Met vows to find billionaire murder suspect Abdulhak

VI. POOR PLEA BY RAPIST

VII. Millionaire rapist at Labour fundraiser

VIII. Lotto millionaire guilty of rape

IX. Ventura jury convicts fugitive cosmetics heir of rapes

X. Designer Anand Jon convicted on rape charges
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?

XI. Millionaire Convicted In Handyman's Murder

XII. Millionaire convicted in Ga. wife slaying

XIII. Millionaire Convicted of Murder in Gas Station Fraud Scheme

XIV Barbara Kogan, widow of millionaire, charged in husband's murder

XV. Cross-Dressing Dermatologist Who Killed Wife Found Dead in Prison

[Philip Lu]

12 example articles explaining your position, how many terrorists have blown up in israel?