Virginity

[Maryjane]

Can't anyone have a bit of fun around here? LOL

No, now grow up. I don't happen to think what I italicized is funny in any way, shape, or form. Maybe you do because you're a male?

Throughout history, there have been cultures that forbid sexual activity outside of marriage; some of these have considered an "intact" hymen "proof" of purity. This connection continues to have a psychological and cultural impact today.

[soothsayer]

Throughout history, there have been cultures that forbid sexual activity outside of marriage; some of these have considered an "intact" hymen "proof" of purity. This connection continues to have a psychological and cultural impact today.

This is yet another contradictory example of illogic.
Maybe the "continuing psychological and cultural connection between an intact hymen and an indication of purity" serves an important evolutionary biological function.
I'm not arguing from a religious standpoint at all---that part of my previous post was intended to be facetious, but let's examine this:
An anatomical structure exists, and therefore must have (or at least have had) a very real biological function---according to the theory of evolution---which, once again, I am not going to dispute, certainly not on religious grounds.
Hey, look, Maryjane, the existence and logical purpose of the hymen cramps (no pun intended) my style as much as it does your feminist worldview---nobody wishes for a consequence-free sexually permissive environment more than I, but the realities of the biological and pathological nature of the planet are otherwise, and the evolution of the hymen as a structure and its attendant influence on human behavior must have a purpose.


Here's another similar illustration:

"saving the planet".

Species have come and gone thoughout the earth's history. Species develop, evolve, achieve their ultimate forms and either survive or they dont.
Nature has its own balance, it is a closed system. The imported spring water you swill may well contain molecules or even compounds that once dribbled down the leg of a mastodon relieving himself---as will the carbon compounds rising into the atmosphere above a coal-fired electricity generation plant in China may well one day be found deep within a mountain.
Not to become too tangential here, but its also entirely possible that despite what any human observer thinks he can discern or theorize, nature very much remains in balance.
Humans expel CO2 and plants synthesize it back into breathable oxygen.
The global ecosystem evolved in a kind of symbiosis. Its really a rejection of evolutionary theory to believe that human activities in expelling CO2 either metabolically or through human-caused chemical reactions can periodically upset that balance, or that it matters even if they do!

[Maryjane]

[QUOTE=soothsayer;684557]Throughout history, there have been cultures that forbid sexual activity outside of marriage; some of these have considered an "intact" hymen "proof" of purity. This connection continues to have a psychological and cultural impact today.

This is yet another contradictory example of illogic.
Maybe the "continuing psychological and cultural connection between an intact hymen and an indication of purity" serves an important evolutionary biological function.

Then again, maybe it's just an embryological vestige and nothing more. I don't know any woman who refrained from having sex because of her hymen. As stated before, it's often ruptured when inserting a tampon or horseback riding. Really, it's NOT that big of a deal.

I'm not arguing from a religious standpoint at all---that part of my previous post was intended to be facetious,

Here we go again...100 miles down the road, you finally pull into your destination. What's with all the detours? Yes, I see you, now please, drop the attention seeking behaviors. It's a sign of immaturity.

but let's examine this:
An anatomical structure exists, and therefore must have (or at least have had) a very real biological function---according to the theory of evolution---which, once again, I am not going to dispute, certainly not on religious grounds.

From page 82 of Desmond Morris’ The Naked Ape: A Zoologist’s Study of the Human Animal, 1st American ed., 1967.

Another related feature, and one that appears to be unique to our speices, is the retention of the hymen or maidenhead in the female. In lower mammals it occurs as an embryonic stage in the development of the urogenital system, but as part of the naked ape’s neoteny it is retained. Its persistence means that the first copulation in the life of the female will meet with some difficulty. When evolution has gone to such lengths to render her as sexually responsive as possible, it is at first sight, strange that she should also be equipped with what amounts to an anti-copulatory device. But the situation is not as contradictory as it may appear. By making the first copulation attempt difficult and even painful, the hymen ensures that it will not be indulged in lightly. Clearly, during the adolescent phase, there is going to be a period of sexual experimentation, of ‘playing the field’ in search of a suitable partner. Young males at this time will have no good reason for stopping short of full copulation. If a pair-bond does not form, they have not committed themselves in any way and can move on until they find a suitable mate. But if young females were to go so far without pair-formation, they might very well find themselves pregnant and heading straight towards a parental situation with no partner to accompany them. By putting a partial brake on this trend in the female, the hymen demands that she shall have already developed a deep emotional involvement before taking the final step, an involvement strong enough to take the initial physical discomfort in its stride.

Maybe it did at one time, but it's no longer necessary. If you'd read my previous link in the other thread, you'd understand why.

Hey, look, Maryjane, the existence and logical purpose of the hymen cramps (no pun intended) my style as much as it does your feminist worldview---nobody wishes for a consequence-free sexually permissive environment more than I, but the realities of the biological and pathological nature of the planet are otherwise, and the evolution of the hymen as a structure and its attendant influence on human behavior must have a purpose.

Puleese....having sex with virgins is primarily a man's fantasy and one upon accomplishment, often bragged about. It's also a reward in heaven. Men can have all the sex they want, but a female? She's a whore and not marriage material. How ego driven can you get? Humans have the ability to practice birth control, a lot of it today is 99% effective. Beats the hell out of the "hymen method", I'd say.

Getting on my own soap box here... I have a feminist world view because unlike you, I've lived as a female and the promise of equality is often nothing more than lip service. Also unlike you, I care that female genital mutilation is just one way in which some ignorant cultures curb sexual permissiveness. Seems you'd much rather make religious jokes about how women are demeaned by the society in which they live.

Here's another similar illustration:

Blah, blah, blah....I see we've hit a detour. You NEVER miss an opportunity to get on your little soap box so someone will pay attention to you do you? You are off topic, and you know it. Seriously, grow up!

[soothsayer]

I happen to be a big fan of Desmond Morris. He has made many brilliant and important observations (although he is not respected within the scientific commuity because generally, he cannot empirically support them).

You are either deliberately mischaracterizing what you quote him as saying hoping it will go unnoticed in your effort to support your wishes, or you need to re-read it, because infact, Morris determines with scientific explanations precisely what religious moralists claim is evidence that biblical commandments are "god's word".

The fact that the hymen occurs during embryonic development actually supports its presence as an evolutionarily intentional structure. It is not an incomplete vestige of the very fissuring and formation of the vaginal canal. Although hymens do vary (i speak from firsthand examinations as well as academic study) they are not the result of partial or abnormal vaginal formation as seen in deformities like cleft palate or hypo or hyperspadias.

Clearly, during the adolescent phase, there is going to be a period of sexual experimentation, of ‘playing the field’ in search of a suitable partner. Young males at this time will have no good reason for stopping short of full copulation. If a pair-bond does not form, they have not committed themselves in any way and can move on until they find a suitable mate. But if young females were to go so far without pair-formation, they might very well find themselves pregnant and heading straight towards a parental situation with no partner to accompany them. By putting a partial brake on this trend in the female, the hymen demands that she shall have already developed a deep emotional involvement before taking the final step, an involvement strong enough to take the initial physical discomfort in its stride.

Morris supports the evolved cultural norm of female sexual prudence.
You threw-in the line, "Maybe it did at one time, but it's no longer necessary."

The topic is Virginity. You yourself are making the argument (that I am also investigating) that it is indeed necessary and serves a vital function in the physical and emotional health of the individual and hence, the survival of the species.

Now, as Isbskins1 elsewhere legitimately points out, this is not proof of the divinity of "god's commandments" necessarily, but certainly support that time and observation led to man's treating these biological facts as such and the species and culture have a vested interest in sustaining such beliefs and practices regardless of the method, be they through superstition, religion, or as you yourself have helped us to see, through the application of scientific knowledge of biology.

She's a whore and not marriage material.

Yes, I see you, now please, drop the attention seeking behaviors. It's a sign of immaturity.

Really. ...and this from a woman who posts an avatar presumably of herself in the nude ?
Talk about attention whores !

Seems you'd much rather make religious jokes about how women are demeaned by the society in which they live.

You're in deep denial. Morris points out that (most) species employ sexual reproduction. That means that each sex necessarily assumes specific roles that are governed by biology. The hymen is but one evidence of this in humans.
"Society" has not "demeaned" the necessary role the female plays in the survival of the species, but rather, society has evolved as it has as a result of these biological facts.
If anything, thanks to technology, socialism, and fiat money, society has recently been evolving contrary to nature, and the promiscuity of women and the diminishment of the natural need for "permanent pair bonding" may be signaling the undoing of the species.
I'm not arguing this, exactly, but your Morris might be.

Men can have all the sex they want, but a female?

There are biological consequences to either sex "having all the sex they want".
The fact that they are somewhat different and more consequential to the health of the individual organism as well as the survival of the species with one or the other is simply the way it is.

I don't know any woman who refrained from having sex because of her hymen. As stated before, it's often ruptured when inserting a tampon or horseback riding. Really, it's NOT that big of a deal.

Maybe they should have. Only the ultimate outcome for the species will determine whether it was a "BIG DEAL" or not.


My efforts to keep this thread entertaining and lighthearted aside have not diminished the real debate within this topic, but your lame attempts at feigned superiority have contributed nothing to the investigatopn of the potential reasons for "virginity" to be an issue in society or biology.