User Tag List

Page 1 of 14 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 12 of 158

Thread: No evidence for or against God? Rational to assume he's not there

  1. #1
    Molten Ash
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    91
    Threads
    1
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    No evidence for or against God? Rational to assume he's not there

    In a previous discussion, Meleager stated:
    If there is no evidence for God or against God, then the atheist assumption in nonexistence is irrational.

    My counter is as follows:

    If I look into a room and I see nothing, which of the two options is more likely?

    1. There is no bird in the room
    2. There is a bird in the room but he is hiding

    Occam's Razor says we pick the option with the fewest assumptions: Choice 1


    In every single case, your two options are these

    1. X does not exist
    2. X does exist + an assumption to explain why we cannot see X



    So if I look into a universe, and I cannot see God (or evidence of God):

    1. God does not exist
    2. God does exist and something must explain why I cannot see God

    Therefore

    In all cases, if there is no evidence for or against the existence of God, it is more probable that he does not exist than he does exist.

    --------------------------------------------------------
    With tremendous humility, I must apologize to Meleager. He developed a counter that defeated my argument. It was a most cunning counter. And then I countered myself with an even stronger argument. I'm afraid that Meleager is correct in saying that

    If there is no evidence for or against the existence of God, it is irrational to claim he does not exist.

    The most you can say is "I don't know". Atheists, to be logical, should become agnostics.
    --------------------------------------------------------

    Here is the counterargument:

    I hold a box and it is painted black. In this situation, I truly have no evidence for or against anything. Now - here's what I was thinking:

    I have no evidence for a bird. So I could say there is no bird.
    But - I also have no evidence that is no bird. So I could say there is a bird.

    Both make an assumption - it exists or it doesn't exist.


    What is the probability that there is a bird in the box?
    Anything could be in the box!
    So what is the probability that there is nothing in the box?
    Same as there being a bird!


    What is in the box could be any configuration of matter or non matter.

    There could be a sandwich and space in the box.
    There could be a space of jello in the box
    There could be a tiny unicorn in the box
    There could be a bird in the box
    There could be nothing in the box

    The probability that nothing is in the box would be something (obviously not exact) like:
    1/10000000000000000000000000000

    The probability that the bird is in the box would be the same
    1/10000000000000000000000000000

    But the probability that what is in the box is something other than a bird would be

    100% - 1/10000000000000000000000000000 =

    99.99999999999999%

    The probability that there is no bird in the box is almost 100%

    However:

    These possibilities also exist:

    there is jello and a bird
    there is a unicorn and a bird
    there is a frog and a bird

    But then again, there could be:

    Jello and a unicorn
    Jello and a frog
    Jello and a hammer

    But then I could tack on bird to that list too.

    We cannot know what is in the box - we cannot even know the probability of the bird being in the box.

    In matters of the unknown - we simply do not know.

    Last edited by Aristotelian; 4th June 2009 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #2
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,863
    Threads
    2217
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    289
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I also saw a reference to the "argument from ignorance", a logical fallacy that presumes a lack of evidence is evidence of the opposing view. However, there are exceptions.

    Inductive usage refers to the extension of an argument to support a wider generalization of a hypothesis, principle, scientific theory, or universal law. Many such uses of the Argument from Ignorance are considered fallacious, especially in academic papers which are expected to be rigorous about their key premises and empirical foundations. However, in some cases (such as that which the noted author Irving Copi describes below) where affirmative evidence could reasonably be expected to be found, but following careful unbiased examination, this evidence has still not been found, then it might become expedient, and sometimes even prudent, to infer that this might suggest (though it does not prove, deductively, it suggests inductively) that the evidence does not exist. Or, where the speaker can reasonably assume that all sane people will agree with a premise (e.g. "The sky is blue"), then he might decide it is unnecessary to provide evidence supporting that assertion; however, these issues (to which epistemological foundationalism is closely related, and with which it is also closely intertwined) are still debated.

    [edit] Description

    Irving Copi writes that:

    The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true.

    He adds,

    A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953)
    Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    The Forum Rules

    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
    [John F. Kennedy]
    The principal value of debate lies in the development of logical thought processes, and the ability to articulate your positions publicly.
    [Senator Dick Clark of Iowa]
    The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
    [Terry Pratchett]

  3. #3
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,662
    Threads
    595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    I also saw a reference to the "argument from ignorance",
    a logical fallacy that presumes a lack of evidence is
    evidence of the opposing view.
    However, there are exceptions.
    The basic question is, should we prefer a supernatural explanation over a naturalistic one? For example, if I see a strange light up ahead, should I assume it belongs to a ghost, or to some source that's more traceable? The answer seems obvious to me, but mystics favor mysticism, and will defend it in order to retain what is otherwise a foregone conclusion.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

  4. #4
    Volcanic Erupter RickSp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    14,947
    Threads
    335
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I still object to the "evidence for God or against God". There can never be evidence against the concept of a god unless one defines god precisely, which is the one thing most theists would prefer not to do. Otherwise, asking for evidence against the existence of god is a bad con game.

    I see nothing wrong in the statement - based on all the information that I have available I see no evidence for the existence of a god or gods.

    Rick

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  5. #5
    Volcanic Erupter tinybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    9,017
    Threads
    449
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    God used to make occasional appearances from time to time, but lately none. I wonder why? Can anyone explain please?


  6. #6
    Young daVinci
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2
    Threads
    0
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Though we may never find proof that a god is there, we gradually deduct any purpose a god would serve.

    As Richard Dawkins says, "We are all atheist to most of the gods society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

    And he's right. We no longer need the Greek gods to control our waters nor the the sun or the spiders. Science has shown us how nature carries out its grand scheme in things.

    Personally, I believe that as we work towards understanding the Law of Attraction, the human brain, and the universe, a need for a god will become obsolete.


  7. #7
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    central Illinois
    Posts
    8,091
    Threads
    124
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: grandpa View Post
    The basic question is, should we prefer a supernatural explanation over a naturalistic one? For example, if I see a strange light up ahead, should I assume it belongs to a ghost, or to some source that's more traceable? The answer seems obvious to me, but mystics favor mysticism, and will defend it in order to retain what is otherwise a foregone conclusion.

    Grandpa h.
    Then I'm the exception. Or I've a different idea than you of what it means to be a mystic. St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross had very stringent criteria of the mystic experience. Much more stringent than a subjective judgment of "strange lights." The more traceable source for the light that you would look for, would also be looked for by the mystic.

    And then the evaluations of the kooks are to be considered(?). And also the adage by James Randi must be kept in mind. "Anyone can be fooled."

    Quote Quote by: tinybear View Post
    God used to make occasional appearances from time to time, but lately none. I wonder why? Can anyone explain please?
    When you say "God used to make appearances," I'm supposing that you mean prior to your life. You have taken a writers word that this has happened. Having not observed such an appearance yourself then, are you sure you know what to look for?

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  8. #8
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: tinybear View Post
    God used to make occasional appearances from time to time, but lately none. I wonder why? Can anyone explain please?
    Simple answer:

    War on Drugs.


  9. #9
    Volcanic Erupter Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,155
    Threads
    384
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why do people insist on God being a He? Does the universe exist? I think we can assume that it does, however, with quantum physics, I am not sure about the reality of appearances. I do think quantum physics is the way to study God and that this God is not a human like being.

    I speak controversy so we have something to talk about. Don't take me too seriously.

  10. #10
    Volcanic Erupter Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,155
    Threads
    384
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Optimist View Post
    Though we may never find proof that a god is there, we gradually deduct any purpose a god would serve.

    As Richard Dawkins says, "We are all atheist to most of the gods society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

    And he's right. We no longer need the Greek gods to control our waters nor the the sun or the spiders. Science has shown us how nature carries out its grand scheme in things.

    Personally, I believe that as we work towards understanding the Law of Attraction, the human brain, and the universe, a need for a god will become obsolete.
    Eventually the Greek philosophers concluded, reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe, is above even the gods. The stories of the gods were replaced with science.

    Democracy is the result of concluding even the gods are subject to the controlling principle of the universe, and these humans, to better govern themselves, need study the controlling principle of the universe. Some call this the study of Nature and hold through their study of Nature they can infer something about God, the controlling principle of the universe.

    I speak controversy so we have something to talk about. Don't take me too seriously.

  11. #11
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,662
    Threads
    595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: minorwork View Post
    Then I'm the exception.
    Or I've a different idea than you of what it
    means to be a mystic.
    Perhaps, but you'll have to explain better what you mean.

    If you ask me, "religion" is another term for not understanding.
    Religion is possible mostly because it is difficult to reliably recover from its "teachings".
    When most people get hooked into that kind of thinking, it seems very hard for them to get out.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

  12. #12
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,662
    Threads
    595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Athena View Post
    Eventually the Greek philosophers concluded, reason, thought of as constituting
    the controlling principle of the universe, is above even the
    gods.
    The stories of the gods were replaced with science.
    True but, interestingly, just about every culture seems to have its own "creation myths":
    Bukkake of the Gods: Japan's Insane Creation Myths | Cracked.com

    If nothing else, these stories have a strange sort of charm.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •