Can Direct Democracy Work Today?

[Cruella]

Why is this forum meant to be a democracy? It doesn't state that anywhere on the rules, the descriptions or anywhere at all as far as I can see.

What on earth does this site have to do with a democratic process? Whatever the mods might, or might not do, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP of this thread, which is about national direct democracy. This forum isn't a country.

[Athena]

Why is this forum meant to be a democracy? It doesn't state that anywhere on the rules, the descriptions or anywhere at all as far as I can see.

What on earth does this site have to do with a democratic process? Whatever the mods might, or might not do, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP of this thread, which is about national direct democracy. This forum isn't a country.

Thank you for helping me make my point.

[Cruella]

Seriously Athena, what on earth does it matter that Volconvo isn't a democracy?

I've read many of your posts on the subject over the years and you always seem to think that Volconvo should be a democracy (incidentally, I'm disagreeing that it's an autocracy too, which you seem to have missed) yet you have never once that I have read articulated why it should be.

It is what it is. Which is not a reflection of society, however much you seem to want it to be. Nor should it be.

Your post has got nothing to do with the OP. You're just using it, yet again, to make a cheap dig at the moderators. Shame on you.

[Praxius]

Praxius, the development of the U.S. govt IS essentially relevant to any discussion about democracy. It had a world-changing effect without which this discussion would be taking place anywhere.

It is no more imporant to the discussion then any other democracy out there in the world today.

Newsflash:

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Although not described as a democracy by the founding fathers, the United States founders shared a determination to root the American experiment in the principle of natural freedom and equality for white male landowners. The United States Constitution, adopted in 1788, provided for an elected government and protected civil rights and liberties. In the colonial period before 1776, and for some time after, only adult white male property owners could vote; enslaved Africans, free black people and women were not extended the franchise."

and:

DEMOCRACY 250--New Book Celebrates Nova Scotia as One of the Most Successful Democracies in History
Democracy 250 | News and Announcements

"A new book commemorating the 250th anniversary of representative government in Nova Scotia and the birth of parliamentary democracy in Canada was launched at Province House."

^ We've been using Democracy since 1758.... so if you want to use the "We had it first" attitude to justify your own democracy as being the rule to follow, you're greatly mistaken.

First off, you Canadians are innately socialist and characteristically royalists.
Festival Express

^ Sorry, but what does this have to do with anything, and who gives a rats arse what you label us as?

Are we somehow not as qualified to speak about democracy compared to the US because we sometimes do things you don't approve of?

I don't think so..... and guess what? You guys do plenty the rest of the world doesn't like.... life goes on.

Secondly, I did explain why "direct democracy" is essentially government sanctioned "mob rule".

Without applying any effort in trying to fix the concerns, you maybe right, but what is available that can be done to prevent this in a direct democracy?

You can still have a government in place that only maintains the equal order of things and makes sure things are not unbalanced, while still allowing the people to have more input.

The same libtards who preach about a false concept like "social justice" which, like "equality" is blindly accepted yet means nothing. They are really only rallying cries and propaganda for "class warfare", and even "class" is a dubious term.
Human beings' contributions, efforts, successes and talents are all unique and result in varying measures of value at different times by different segments of their fellow man. Some people are irresponsible, unproductive, or just lucky, others unlucky despite their legitimate efforts.
To try to mandate "equality" is inherently false unless one means precisely "equality of opportunity" for all the above variables to occur inhindered and unmanipulated through various artificial forces of power with thenaturally varied results for each individual. For those in power to claim that they can even attempt to bring about anything more than the promise of "leaving individuals alone" is only seducing the weak or envious or lazy into believing they can have something more than what they have achieved on their own at the expense of others by force. They are doubly wrong because even if their powerful benefactors could deliver it to them, they would do so at the expense of impoverishing all but themselves in the process. A cursory study of history proves this if common sense isnt enough.

Well for one thing, you're ranting on about things I have already covered in a previous link to the system I propose. Secondly, in the link I provided with the system I propose, you can't just simply hand out promises like what's exactly going on today (You're fooling yourself to think it isn't by the way) ~ They must explain in detail how they plan on making these things happen. If they can't, then they don't get support and the people won't buy it.

A perfect example of this occuring would be from our last election with the Liberals trying to sell their Green Shift plan. They didn't explain it well, it looks like a system that would fail and it looks like a system that not only was flawed, but came at the wrong time (screwed economy)

The people of Canada gave the Liberals their worst support they've ever had since the party was created back in 1867 and the fool, Dion, had to step down because of his dismal failure.

Although the people were voting in a party for our democracy, they also saw the election as a message to send about the Green Shift that the Liberals were proposing, which was the foundation of their plans in office.

Now if this type of process was done more often and more people got involved in such a way, things would probably get done a lot faster and closer to the right way for once.

With the current system, we only get to have a say in a couple of things every four years.... the rest is in the politicians hands.

It "works" only if you are in the majority. With all your pretense of caring about preserving indivudual human rights, remember that the individual is the smallest minority.

With the system I provided, decisions would be based as regional, where rather then one final decision isn't forced on everybody, the decisions and views given per each location (like how each US State can adjust their laws, etc) would affect that location.

You keep complaining about majority rule or Mob rule, where those in the minority don't have a say, and yet that's exactly what's happening in both of our countries today, so I don't know what you're going on about.

What about all those people who voted for McCain?

Too bad for them I guess.

What about myself who voted NDP in the last two elections and they only got 3rd place? My vote means squat in the current system.... which is why many others don't bother to get involved in the first place, since the two major parties that most of them don't like and are fed up with always get into power anyways.

The link I provided is very illustrative if the below quip for some reason, is not:

"When two wolves and a lamb take a democratic vote on what to have for dinner, the lamb always loses"

And exactly how is that any different then what we currently have?

Don't forget Obama and Harper are our leaders..... and not everybody voted for them..... those who didn't, well, they don't matter anymore do they?

You're arguing about Direct Democracy with examples that are already existing in our current Representational Democracy..... kinda hypocritical.

These issues will always exist in any democracy anybody follows, however I believe that with a modified and updated form of Direct, we can at the very least, reduce some of these problems and allow for a greater voice for the individual.

You use quotes about sheep and wolves..... well we already have a giant continent full of sheep with enough rich wolves sticking it to us already.

[Praxius]

Democracy is an ideology coming out a belief in many gods and what it means to be human. We can not manifest it without learning about it, same as there could be no Christian or Muslims societies, without learning about the religions.

There is no hard-line connection between the old Greek mythologies and Democracy. Everything I have read about democracy states the concepts and ideals, which none of them are connected to any religious beliefs. Yes the Greeks started with Democracy, and yet, I have yet to see any official definitions of "Democracy" requiring any explinations of any religious deities in order to fully understand it's methods.

People in the US with your own method of Democracy may have your own views and they may actually be shaped around some mythologies, but there are other forms of democracy out there in the world, not all of them, in fact most probably don't revolve their understanding around any religious or mythological dogma.

Maybe to understand your system of Democracy one needs to understand the mythologies.... but it is not required in order to talk/debate other methods of democracy.

You speak about understanding Muslim or Christian societies.... but those are societies evolved from religious beliefs..... but in each Muslim or Christian society, they can all have different forms of government.

Religion and Government are two different things.... which is why the seperation of Church and State was created in the first place.

[Praxius]

I can't resist. I will demonstrate why we are more autocratic than democratic.

The owners of volconvo have full autocratic rights over this site. They can silece anyone with penilities and when that doesn't work, they can ban a person. The majority of people will defend volconvo's right to be autocratic and do what it wants. Now with all those in power playing by autocratic rules, and the majority supporting the right of the those in power to play by autocratic rules, how can we have a democracy?

Now Matt and other moderators, please do not disappoint me. Do what you have always done in the past, whenever I use volconvo to make this point.

Tell you what, I'll state the obvious:

Online forums, any forum.... is not a Democracy... they are dictatorships, where the rules and conduct are dictated by those who own and run the forum. They own it, not you or I.... therefore they can say or do whatever they please.

Just be glad they don't abuse their powers and are responsible enough to control their freedoms.

Think of it like someone's home.

You go there to visit and say hi...... but if they want you to take your shoes off at the door, not to smoke in their home, don't play around with the TV, etc..... then you don't do it.... they own the house and property, not you (At least enough to have authority to determine/dictate what they want people to do or not do on their property)

Someone else's property is not a democracy.... you can not walk onto someone's property and say you're building a deck for yourself, or smashing down a wall to extend on their house, even if you have a few friends with you to make a majority..... you will get arrested and baned from the property with a restraining order.

Sound familiar?

[commonsense]

Well, it doesnt seem like we're in much disagreement...
When I speak of "the American" system I'm referring to the way it was intended to be, were it adhered to, not the way it is.
Also, for the edification of others, if Im not mistaken, I think the Canadian term "liberal" means what an educated american would refer to as "classical liberal" which, form the sund of it, what they do in practice is closer to what we would call " modern libertarian" which is pretty much a corporatocracy, not exactly what I tend to espouse which is more "consitutionalist" with "libertarian" humanitarian philosophy applied to local, grassroots, charitable or entrepreneurial address of social concerns.

You'll never hear "classical libertarianism" uttered even in U.S. political science classrooms because there is such a monopoly of dogma there, they dont anyone to consider anything but neo-Stalinism.

As far as the Nova Scotia reference, thank you. When I get the chance, I'll look into it for my own education. I've been to NS on a cruise ship and missed this bit of their history
Nevertheless, its undeniable that it is little known and whether it prexisted or came about concurrently with the american experiment, the influence of the U.S. on the global awareness of democratic systems far exceeds it

[Matt W]

Athena, I suggest you re-read the rules. Disrupting a thread is not only against them, it's extremely impolite. Let's stick to the topic, please.

[do not respond]

[Athena]

Seriously Athena, what on earth does it matter that Volconvo isn't a democracy?

I've read many of your posts on the subject over the years and you always seem to think that Volconvo should be a democracy (incidentally, I'm disagreeing that it's an autocracy too, which you seem to have missed) yet you have never once that I have read articulated why it should be.

It is what it is. Which is not a reflection of society, however much you seem to want it to be. Nor should it be.

Your post has got nothing to do with the OP. You're just using it, yet again, to make a cheap dig at the moderators. Shame on you.

The question of this thread is Can Direct Democracy Work Today? and I am saying, no. Only when people live by democratic principles can they manifest democracy. If they do not live by democratic principles, they can not manifest democracy.

[Athena]

Tell you what, I'll state the obvious:

Online forums, any forum.... is not a Democracy... they are dictatorships, where the rules and conduct are dictated by those who own and run the forum. They own it, not you or I.... therefore they can say or do whatever they please.

Just be glad they don't abuse their powers and are responsible enough to control their freedoms.

Think of it like someone's home.

You go there to visit and say hi...... but if they want you to take your shoes off at the door, not to smoke in their home, don't play around with the TV, etc..... then you don't do it.... they own the house and property, not you (At least enough to have authority to determine/dictate what they want people to do or not do on their property)

Someone else's property is not a democracy.... you can not walk onto someone's property and say you're building a deck for yourself, or smashing down a wall to extend on their house, even if you have a few friends with you to make a majority..... you will get arrested and baned from the property with a restraining order.

Sound familiar?

Thank you. May goodness you all are being so cooperative.

Now what do you have to say about the possibility of creating a democracy?

[Athena]

There is no hard-line connection between the old Greek mythologies and Democracy. Everything I have read about democracy states the concepts and ideals, which none of them are connected to any religious beliefs. Yes the Greeks started with Democracy, and yet, I have yet to see any official definitions of "Democracy" requiring any explinations of any religious deities in order to fully understand it's methods.

People in the US with your own method of Democracy may have your own views and they may actually be shaped around some mythologies, but there are other forms of democracy out there in the world, not all of them, in fact most probably don't revolve their understanding around any religious or mythological dogma.

Maybe to understand your system of Democracy one needs to understand the mythologies.... but it is not required in order to talk/debate other methods of democracy.

You speak about understanding Muslim or Christian societies.... but those are societies evolved from religious beliefs..... but in each Muslim or Christian society, they can all have different forms of government.

Religion and Government are two different things.... which is why the seperation of Church and State was created in the first place.

What are the democratic principles of which we are speaking when we debate about if we can have a direct democracy or not? What is the reasoning behind them? How are do they become a part of who we are?

[minorwork]

Thank you. May goodness you all are being so cooperative.

Now what do you have to say about the possibility of creating a democracy?

How much time a day will I have to devote to it? I've got dishes and toilets to clean or I get beat. How many lashes will this direct democracy cost me?

I don't think it would be too much if the government weren't into banking, car making, health care, etc. Those are real time consumers.

And what am I to be paid for my service? Would it depend on how many hours I put into it a year?

What if the internet and the power grid were disabled for half the country or more for over a year by a really big Coronal Mass Ejection event from the good old sun? I'm guessing voting would be done on line. Very secure format and certainly no hackers would try to affect outcomes. I think I'd offer a service to vote for other people so they wouldn't have to find some spare time. I don't know. Maybe something like this. YouTube - Government Officials Voting Fraudulently: Lawmakers Breaking the Law - Texas Legislature