Top 10 reasons why I am not an atheist

[Technomancer]

This is a list of the top 10 reasons why I am not an atheist. When I say atheist I am talking about the kind that is in the like of Neitche, Dawkins, and Dennett. The type that incorporates philosophical-naturalism and materialism.

I know many of you will disagree with this list so try to have fun with it. Some of the reasons are more analytical and others are more emotional.

10. Any artifact we produce in this life will eventually disappear, whether it be in the next generation or a thousand years from now. All of us will evenually become irrelevant.

9. There is no true purpose to the world. We can manufacture our own purpose, but it has no persistence, no ultimate truth and can change according to how we feel or according to our perspective.

8. It is confusing how we can have a brilliant conscious experience inside some grey brain-matter. No matter how detailed a science text book on the human mind is, it cannot teach us what lobster tastes like, what the color red feels like, or what a wave at the beach sounds like.

7. There is no reconciliation for awful tragedies that happen in this world. A poor, sick, starving child that dies at a miserable young age has no after-life to make up for it.

6. If my mind is reducible to mathematical structures that can be formulated, there is no room for freewill. Anything I think of could be calculated if we had the resources to do so. This contradicts my internal sense of having freewill.

5. During times of distress and discomfort, there is no solace or comfort that can be found by praying or appealing to the Catalina mountains, the great sauguaro cactus outside my house, or any other aspect of nature.

4. I would have to believe that self-replicating RNA was spontaneously/accidentally created in some kind of primordial soup.

3. Seems akward to suggest the Universe invented itself. Why three dimensions of space? Why the magnetic force? To me it is like suggesting Abraham Lincoln built the log cabin he was born in with his own hands.

2. We are puppets. There is no part of our inner-being (like a soul) that is immune to our environment. Every neural pathway that defines who we are and what we think can be affected by outside forces. Our core being has no barrier to protect it from being manipulated by outside malignant or accidental influences. Our identity, self image and belief system would be entirely at the mercy of what happens to us.

1. Mother Nature, although showing elements of beauty, is a savage and cruel mistress that offers no salvation from her (and our own) destructive nature. We all die.

[sdbest]

May your particular imaginary super being--of the tens of thousands from which to choose from--give you comfort. Reality is a bitch, I know.

[Jinei]

10. Any artifact we produce in this life will eventually disappear, whether it be in the next generation or a thousand years from now. All of us will evenually become irrelevant.

There's always the golden phonograph record we sent on the voyager spacecraft. Last time I read about it, it will persist for 5 billion years, maybe longer than the lifetime of our sun and Earth.

9. There is no true purpose to the world. We can manufacture our own purpose, but it has no persistence, no ultimate truth and can change according to how we feel or according to our perspective.

If there were a purpose to life, wouldn't that undermine the freewill you speak of in Reason # 6?

8. It is confusing how we can have a brilliant conscious experience inside some grey brain-matter. No matter how detailed a science text book on the human mind is, it cannot teach us what lobster tastes like, what the color red feels like, or what a wave at the beach sounds like.

That's what poetry is for :p

7. There is no reconciliation for awful tragedies that happen in this world. A poor, sick, starving child that dies at a miserable young age has no after-life to make up for it.

There's no evidence against an after-life. That doesn't mean it exists, just that there's no evidence either way.

6. If my mind is reducible to mathematical structures that can be formulated, there is no room for freewill. Anything I think of could be calculated if we had the resources to do so. This contradicts my internal sense of having freewill.

To be able to calculate your thoughts, wouldn't I also need to know the "mathematical structure" of every little elementary particle around you, as they are intrinsically responsible for what you think about? I think physicists call that a "super task."

5. During times of distress and discomfort, there is no solace or comfort that can be found by praying or appealing to the Catalina mountains, the great sauguaro cactus outside my house, or any other aspect of nature.

It's my suspicion that blind faith is rather therapeutic. If you actually believed mountains and cacti had the power to help you, calmly praying to them just might help.

4. I would have to believe that self-replicating RNA was spontaneously/accidentally created in some kind of primordial soup.

You wouldn't have to believe in anything to be an atheist. And what's so demeaning about RNA being developed through natural processes? Does that make us any less than what we are? Or does it make atom and blind nature more?

3. Seems akward to suggest the Universe invented itself. Why three dimensions of space? Why the magnetic force? To me it is like suggesting Abraham Lincoln built the log cabin he was born in with his own hands.

But it's not like that at all. You're suggesting that the universe was "built," as you analogy goes. It's complicated but here it is anyway:
What we know as cause and effect are function of linear time. You'd be right in suggesting that if the universe is the effect then a creation must be the cause. But time is a dimension -- an innate part of the universe. Before there was a universe, there was no time. If there's no time, there's no cause and effect. In this respect, there was no creation -- there is no cause.

2. ....... Our identity, self image and belief system would be entirely at the mercy of what happens to us.

Is this not reality?

1. Mother Nature, although showing elements of beauty, is a savage and cruel mistress that offers no salvation from her (and our own) destructive nature. We all die.

“The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.”
- Carl E. Sagan
'Tis also reality.



those were pretty interesting, thanks for the post.
I'm agnostic btw

[Technomancer]

May your particular imaginary super being--of the tens of thousands from which to choose from--give you comfort. Reality is a bitch, I know.

Very nice. I laughed out loud when I read this.

Seriously though, I do not think that choosing a god is like choosing a dentist. I believe we all have insight into God's nature and that many religions represent a particular view from a particular angle of the infinite creative source we call "God". What He reveals to us is often not perfect. I believe that there are some views that are much closer and less blurry than others.

[Baarst]

This is a list of the top 10 reasons why I am not an atheist. When I say atheist I am talking about the kind that is in the like of Neitche, Dawkins, and Dennett. The type that incorporates philosophical-naturalism and materialism.

I know many of you will disagree with this list so try to have fun with it. Some of the reasons are more analytical and others are more emotional.

10. Any artifact we produce in this life will eventually disappear, whether it be in the next generation or a thousand years from now. All of us will evenually become irrelevant.

9. There is no true purpose to the world. We can manufacture our own purpose, but it has no persistence, no ultimate truth and can change according to how we feel or according to our perspective.

8. It is confusing how we can have a brilliant conscious experience inside some grey brain-matter. No matter how detailed a science text book on the human mind is, it cannot teach us what lobster tastes like, what the color red feels like, or what a wave at the beach sounds like.

7. There is no reconciliation for awful tragedies that happen in this world. A poor, sick, starving child that dies at a miserable young age has no after-life to make up for it.

6. If my mind is reducible to mathematical structures that can be formulated, there is no room for freewill. Anything I think of could be calculated if we had the resources to do so. This contradicts my internal sense of having freewill.

5. During times of distress and discomfort, there is no solace or comfort that can be found by praying or appealing to the Catalina mountains, the great sauguaro cactus outside my house, or any other aspect of nature.

4. I would have to believe that self-replicating RNA was spontaneously/accidentally created in some kind of primordial soup.

3. Seems akward to suggest the Universe invented itself. Why three dimensions of space? Why the magnetic force? To me it is like suggesting Abraham Lincoln built the log cabin he was born in with his own hands.

2. We are puppets. There is no part of our inner-being (like a soul) that is immune to our environment. Every neural pathway that defines who we are and what we think can be affected by outside forces. Our core being has no barrier to protect it from being manipulated by outside malignant or accidental influences. Our identity, self image and belief system would be entirely at the mercy of what happens to us.

1. Mother Nature, although showing elements of beauty, is a savage and cruel mistress that offers no salvation from her (and our own) destructive nature. We all die.

Honestly, that sucked worse then Letterman's top 10.

[Matt W]

If you're not interested in debating, sdbest & Baarst, then don't post.

[do not respond]

[Tycoon]

Seriously though, I do not think that choosing a god is like choosing a dentist. I believe we all have insight into God's nature and that many religions represent a particular view from a particular angle of the infinite creative source we call "God". What He reveals to us is often not perfect. I believe that there are some views that are much closer and less blurry than others.

Do you claim the title Christian? If a census were to be taken about religion what would you claim to be?

[HelioPrime]

Do you claim the title Christian? If a census were to be taken about religion what would you claim to be?

Why does that matter?

I agree with him on a few things. Mostly the idea of rock and basic elements becoming self replicating structures. So many improbable chances happening in a developed order.

There is no evidence such happened. Yet because of the rules of secularism were supposed to just always go with the natural cause. Until God comes down and appears before us were supposed to just say the natural explanation is the most likely one.

[Tycoon]

Why does that matter?

All that talk about forming your own opinion of God carefully is nice, but would be terribly contradicted if he were Christian.

[triad]

The existence of everything is a coincidence.


Allow me,

Comparable to a grain of sand on a beach of trillions of others, the fact that the earth became suitable for us to live and thrive as a species is unimaginably unlikely. Therefore, however we came to be - which we admittedly don't know - is just the occurrence of billions of years of coincidences. This mutated into that, etc...


Of course this is only guessing, but my guess is as good as any other one. Including that of the religious guess, which is God did it.

I know many of you will disagree with this list so try to have fun with it. Some of the reasons are more analytical and others are more emotional.

10. Any artifact we produce in this life will eventually disappear, whether it be in the next generation or a thousand years from now. All of us will evenually become irrelevant.

Which is irrelevant... chances are our species is going to have a short shot and live a brief actuality. Using that time to argue about why we are here is irrelevant. The extreme lack of evidence or even comprehension of an afterlife should give us a good reason to spend our time here wisely... chances are it's all we get.

9. There is no true purpose to the world. We can manufacture our own purpose, but it has no persistence, no ultimate truth and can change according to how we feel or according to our perspective.

Same with religion, it has no purpose but the purpose each individual that indulges in it give it. Religion serves no purpose to me, because my mind has developed in a way where I do not rely on it to feel comfortable being alive.

8. It is confusing how we can have a brilliant conscious experience inside some grey brain-matter. No matter how detailed a science text book on the human mind is, it cannot teach us what lobster tastes like, what the color red feels like, or what a wave at the beach sounds like.

That is only because our language is not sophisticated enough to describe these things in a comprehensible way. The way they work is explainable, maybe not to our beings.

7. There is no reconciliation for awful tragedies that happen in this world. A poor, sick, starving child that dies at a miserable young age has no after-life to make up for it.

Your sympathy for those who experience tragedies and lived lives that were unfair does not give religion any credibility. All this does is prove you're apathetic to wards accepting reality.

6. If my mind is reducible to mathematical structures that can be formulated, there is no room for freewill. Anything I think of could be calculated if we had the resources to do so. This contradicts my internal sense of having freewill.

Again, it is not that it is impossible to do... it is that it is impossible to do with current human capabilities.

5. During times of distress and discomfort, there is no solace or comfort that can be found by praying or appealing to the Catalina mountains, the great sauguaro cactus outside my house, or any other aspect of nature.

And that is exactly why I am Atheist. Religion is nothing more than an opiate for those who fear the discomfort of reality. "Opiate of the masses."

3. Seems akward to suggest the Universe invented itself. Why three dimensions of space? Why the magnetic force? To me it is like suggesting Abraham Lincoln built the log cabin he was born in with his own hands.

You're leaving no other option besides 'invention'. Thats why we humans are so vulnerable to religion, we understand everything as being created and eventually ending. Thats our downfall as a species with the ability to reason, we only reason within our current realm of understanding. When something pushes the envelope on our barrier of comprehension, we turn to religion. This is just so silly to me.

2. We are puppets. There is no part of our inner-being (like a soul) that is immune to our environment. Every neural pathway that defines who we are and what we think can be affected by outside forces. Our core being has no barrier to protect it from being manipulated by outside malignant or accidental influences. Our identity, self image and belief system would be entirely at the mercy of what happens to us.

Exactly, that is why so many people are enslaved by their religions. They are manipulated to the point where they lose the freewill to ponder things such as how the universe became to be; they just accept religion and then go on with life.

1. Mother Nature, although showing elements of beauty, is a savage and cruel mistress that offers no salvation from her (and our own) destructive nature. We all die.

Without savageness there would be no beauty. Mother nature is not savage but fair. The balance we see in nature is what keeps this planet alive. Leave her be, she is not cruel but her path is not to be hindered.

[Technomancer]

There's always the golden phonograph record we sent on the voyager spacecraft. Last time I read about it, it will persist for 5 billion years, maybe longer than the lifetime of our sun and Earth.

True, but I have no personal contribution in the Voyager. Also, it will eventual be irrelevant, even if it takes 5 billion years, or (most likely) never be more significant than a rock moving through space.

If there were a purpose to life, wouldn't that undermine the freewill you speak of in Reason # 6?

I'm not sure why, particularly if freewill was an integral part of that purpose.

That's what poetry is for :p

Sure, but will a poem about a sunset let someone who lives underground and has never seen a sunset know what it is like to experience one? There is a gap between what language can tell us and what our conscious experience can tell us.

There's no evidence against an after-life. That doesn't mean it exists, just that there's no evidence either way.

True... this is one of the emotional reasons.

To be able to calculate your thoughts, wouldn't I also need to know the "mathematical structure" of every little elementary particle around you, as they are intrinsically responsible for what you think about? I think physicists call that a "super task."

That is true, however, it would still be computable in principle, even if it was not practical to do so.

It's my suspicion that blind faith is rather therapeutic. If you actually believed mountains and cacti had the power to help you, calmly praying to them just might help.

You may be right, but I am not sure what could convince me of that.

You wouldn't have to believe in anything to be an atheist. And what's so demeaning about RNA being developed through natural processes? Does that make us any less than what we are? Or does it make atom and blind nature more?

You are correct in a way, however, I did specify that I was talking about an atheist of the naturalism/materialism sort. I would have to believe that life was created through a natural process. In order for there to be evolution, we would need to have something (most likely RNA) that is self-replicating. Self replication is an extremely complex process that does not really happen in nature. My gut tells me the probability of it happening is basically impossible--like dropping thousands of marbles in a giant box and having them come to rest in a pattern that imitates the first page of Romeo and Juliet.

But it's not like that at all. You're suggesting that the universe was "built," as you analogy goes. It's complicated but here it is anyway:
What we know as cause and effect are function of linear time. You'd be right in suggesting that if the universe is the effect then a creation must be the cause. But time is a dimension -- an innate part of the universe. Before there was a universe, there was no time. If there's no time, there's no cause and effect. In this respect, there was no creation -- there is no cause.

To me it is not just a question of cause and effect, but rather there being a logical basis, reason, or explanation for the Universe being the way it is. Even if we were to suggest the Universe always existed (which is illogical), there is still the question as to why there are 3 spacial dimensions (or whatever number you believe String people) instead of 2 or 5 spacial dimensions.

If somehow we were to come up with a set of axioms that explained this, we would need to have a reason for those axioms. In the end, it seems we are stuck with this perfectly logical Universe resting on an illogical pedestal.

God has the advantage of being a reasonable source for these things in that he is absolute and infinite, not a particular. He is the infinite creative pool from which all particulars arise.

Is this not reality?

To some degree it is. I believe it is our fallen nature that makes it so that our environment changes who we are (fear, lust, anger, pride, etc.). But I believe there is some part of us, our inner soul that cannot be wrecked by nature.

“The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.”
- Carl E. Sagan
'Tis also reality.

True.

those were pretty interesting, thanks for the post.
I'm agnostic btw

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

[Technomancer]

All that talk about forming your own opinion of God carefully is nice, but would be terribly contradicted if he were Christian.

Yes I am Christian. However, I did not suggest that all religions can lead to salvation, which would be considered a false teaching by most Christian sects. What I suggested is that our inner soul has some insight into the infinite creative pool we call God. For example, morality is considered to be defined by God's character. Many non-Christian religions have very good moral principles, and this is because the people in that religion have some insight into God.