Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

[Praxius]

How about to fight for the lives of their friends who have been placed in danger by the actions of the Bush admin?

Regardless of your stance on the war, the war is going on, and fellow military people are supposed to be their friends, their brothers. If my buddy gets in a drunken bar fight and is getting the crap kicked out of him, I don't leave him to get further hurt even if I know he started the fight.

Though in this case you'd be helping the person who went to his friend's aid and not the one who started the fight.

I have no respect for these deserters though I can see the argument that if they were willing to run away before they even saw the fight, I wouldn't want them watching my back.

Understandable.... but others may see it as not understanding why these guys go so blindly at times...

I guess what needs to be understood between both of us, which I guess it already is, is that people join the military for different reasons. And sometimes those reasons are contrasting to their beliefs when thrown in something that goes against why they joined in the first place.

Perhaps that's their mistake.... perhaps it's the government's who puts them in these positions.... then again, perhaps it's the people of the country who don't keep the government in check in order to protect these troops.

[bishop]

given our government's behavior, anyone who enlists should be intelligent enough to realize that corrupt politicians constantly wage unnecessary wars - using them as fodder. i am definitely jaded, but imo, the notion of enlisting for patriotic reasons is as laughable as it is completely naive. since ww2, the only other war i view as justified was our half-hearted campaign in afghanistan.. everything else, however, from panama, to iraq, to somalia, to the balkans, vietnam, etc. - all of that should show any potential recruit that they can and will be sent off to fight for the establishment's global empire.

that said, i'm not entirely sure how i feel about this particular issue... on one hand, i don't feel a lot of sympathy for the guy because he volunteered to sell his body & soul to the establishment, and thus should be held accountable. on the other hand, i don't particularly mind seeing this affront to the establishment - as i view the military as the enabler of the establishment.

[Chancellor]

Ah, but as I see it, the Gulf War had something to fight for... Saddam took action and invaded another country.... they needed help, you guys went and took care of business... and it was quite effective I must say, good job.

It was still an unconstitutional action on the part of the United States. We have no right to interfere in the internal affairs of other nations.

But did you believe in what you were doing? Did you believe that if you were killed, that it was for a good cause? That someone less fortunate would have benifited from your actions? Those are the core principles that I uphold that would justify myself risking my own life, or willing to take someone diserving's life.

I signed a contract and I knew when I joined the Navy back in 1981 that there was the possibility of going to war. The person who joins the military doesn't get to pick and choose which wars he is going to fight.

And what exactly does "diserving's" mean?

[Chancellor]

Do you really want people that feels this strongly against the war in the military? How do you "support the troops", if the troops are unwilling, what would that entail?

I also think that 5 years is a little severe. There should be consequences for breaking the contract, but in matters like this, would not a year or so community service and the fact that its harder to get a job with a criminal record be enough?

When someone has volunteered to help and then does not want to help anymore when he sees what it entails, in matters with this serious consequences for the person, should he be so severly punished for.... saying he would help?
What has he been given or what has been lost so far because of it and what should he have to pay for that?

Desertion in times of war could bring the death penalty, though typically it brings a penalty of five years or less imprisonment. It isn't about merely breaking a contract, it's about deserting your country in a time of armed conflict.

[pahl]

Quote by: Chancellor
Desertion in times of war could bring the death penalty, though typically it brings a penalty of five years or less imprisonment. It isn't about merely breaking a contract, it's about deserting your country in a time of armed conflict.

Yes, they deserted the county in a time of need, but the country does not demand that they serve.

They diden't desert in the middle of action. They where not responible for putting anyone in imminent danger because they deserted, no more than anyone else that could have enlisted and did not enlist.

The only difference between these guys and people that just did not enlist at all is that they walked out on a contract, nothing more. There is no draft factor to it.

[Chancellor]

Yes, they deserted the county in a time of need, but the country does not demand that they serve.

No, they volunteered and entered into a binding contract with the government.

They diden't desert in the middle of action. They where not responible for putting anyone in imminent danger because they deserted, no more than anyone else that could have enlisted and did not enlist.

No, they deserted during a time of war (even if the war is unconstitutional). They didn't have to actually be in a combat action.

The only difference between these guys and people that just did not enlist at all is that they walked out on a contract, nothing more. There is no draft factor to it.

The draft (conscription) has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Try reading what people write instead of reading into what people write.

[another day]

When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die?

I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work.

Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground.

Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.

Sure it was dumb to sign up for the military without being a cold blooded killer who just wants to shoot people for fun, but that said, these guys probably signed up to DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY, not INVADE INNOCENT COUNTRIES.

Canada should be protecting these guys. Unfortunatly harper and his government are basically sucking Bushs balls these days.

[Praxius]

Sure it was dumb to sign up for the military without being a cold blooded killer who just wants to shoot people for fun, but that said, these guys probably signed up to DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY, not INVADE INNOCENT COUNTRIES.

Canada should be protecting these guys. Unfortunatly harper and his government are basically sucking Bushs balls these days.

I think it's more of a balancing act then anything. In the past with Vietnam deserters, there was the draft in place, which the majority of Canada opposed and still do... so they were permitted to cross.... but in this case, they did technically volunteered to fight in the services and are not facing a choice which was solely decided by the government.

The balancing act in this, is that by our laws and standards, and there not being a draft issue at this time, it's a bit more difficult to come to a final conclusion.

If Harper does permit these guys to enter the country under these conditions, where normal cases require threat to one's life by the country they are fleeing, torture from the country they are fleeing, or having their democratic rights being infringed apon, etc.... then this will allow thousands more people who are not at any risk of death or torture from their countries to plea a defense in regards to how these guys got in. Then there's an even bigger headache.

The defense the courts used was that they would be returning to a democratic country where they would not be facing torture at the government's hands and receive a fair trial, therefore Canada does not have a responsibility for their protection.

But personally, I feel there should be exceptions for cases like this.... however that would require the Canadian Government to rule the War in Iraq as officially illegal in some fasion.... which in turn would basically destroy what little relations there are between Canada and the US....

.... not like I see that as a huge loss or anything anyways.... honestly the loss would be more on the US side then us.... as then the US would have no major sources for Uranium, Fresh Water, Oil, Lumber, etc... then that would lead to most likely a war or threat of war between Can/US.....

Now wouldn't that be fun? All because a few people didn't want to die

[brien]

.... but there is no good cause in this, and most of the country hates the war, so where's the sacrafice for a good cause?

I don't recall this being in their volunteer agreement when they joined up of their own free will.

to express their freedom of choice and knowing what is right and what is wrong, and if they feel what they would be doing would be wrong, then they have the right to refuse in my opinion.

They freely gave up their choice when they signed on the dotted line. The right thing to do is to honor their commitment to the USA.

Then all of a sudden came the fake wars and the fake principles..... speculations to start wars.... lies to get profit. Soldier's lives for things that were no risk to the people they were intrusted to protect

.

Nobody forced these guys to join up. They volunteered while the phony wars were already historical fact. They can't say they didn't know.

There is no excuse for these guys. They made a choice that wasn't their's to make by going AWOL and now they have to pay the price. They need to get the courage you assign to them and return to the US to face the music.

[brien]

these guys probably signed up to DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY, not INVADE INNOCENT COUNTRIES.

They signed up to serve their country, not second guess their orders. If volunteers who enlist could pick and choose their orders, we wouldn't have much of a military. We would have chaos.

[Chancellor]

But personally, I feel there should be exceptions for cases like this.... however that would require the Canadian Government to rule the War in Iraq as officially illegal in some fasion.... which in turn would basically destroy what little relations there are between Canada and the US....

The illegality is in the fact that Congress did not declare war. Such a declaration is required under the U. S. Constitution.

[Praxius]

I don't recall this being in their volunteer agreement when they joined up of their own free will.

To me it's irrelevent and I will explain shortly below

They freely gave up their choice when they signed on the dotted line. The right thing to do is to honor their commitment to the USA.

Then shouldn't the US honor their commitment in not sending them in Harm's Way for an unjust war?

Sacraficing one's life for oil, profits and political gains/losses, is not just, nor is it a valid reason to seend your people off to die and/or kill others who pose no threat to your nation. My explination is if you can not trust your own country to use your assets and sacrifices for something good, just and for the right reasons, then why should the government hold trust to these people to going blindly to their potiential deaths?

Nobody forced these guys to join up. They volunteered while the phony wars were already historical fact. They can't say they didn't know.

So they should expect to get screwed over by their own government when they join up? ok.... that sure will help them in having faith in the country they wish to risk their lives for.

I imagine most of these people figured the country learned from Vietnam and what happens when you try to start a war in order to change a government in another country.

There is no excuse for these guys. They made a choice that wasn't their's to make by going AWOL and now they have to pay the price. They need to get the courage you assign to them and return to the US to face the music.

Which apparently is going to happen.