User Tag List

Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 12 of 95

Thread: Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

  1. #1
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters


    Jeremy Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible sentence of five years for desertion.
    (Canadian Press)


    Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

    Canada's top court will not hear the appeals of two American army deserters whose requests for refugee status were denied.

    The Supreme Court of Canada has refused to hear the cases of Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey, who each deserted to Canada in 2004 after learning they were to be deployed to Iraq.

    The high court, as usual, gave no reasons for its refusal.

    The men both applied for refugee status in 2004.

    The Immigration and Refugee Board rejected their claims in 2005. Both the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal have also refused to review the cases.

    Hinzman is believed to be the first American soldier to have fled to Canada because of the Iraq war, but dozens more may be in the country.

    He enlisted in the U.S. army as a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division and deserted in 2004 to avoid going to Iraq. He fled to Canada with his wife and preschool-age son.

    Now living in Toronto and working as a bike courier, Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible five-year prison sentence if he returns to the U.S.


    In response to the ruling, the War Resisters Support Campaign said the federal government should act to allow deserters to take refuge in Canada. The group is planning to hold a demonstration in Toronto on Thursday night.

    "We call on Parliament to take a stand by enacting a provision that would allow U.S. war resisters and their families to stay in Canada," said actor and activist Shirley Douglas.

    "The Supreme Court has handed the issue back to Parliament. It is urgent that Parliament demonstrate leadership and act in accordance with Canadian tradition."


    A release issued by the group on Thursday said a June 2007 poll by Strategic Communications showed 64.6 per cent of respondents in Ontario believe war resisters should be allowed to stay in Canada. The poll had an error margin of four per cent, 19 times out of 20.

    During his three-day hearing before the immigration board, Hinzman said he sought refugee status because he opposed the war in Iraq on moral grounds and thought the U.S. invasion violated international human rights standards.

    An immigration panel in March 2005 denied Hinzman political asylum, saying he failed to convince them he would be persecuted if he returned to the U.S. The board also denied asylum to Hinzman's wife and son.

    The Immigration and Refugee Board members said the U.S. is a democratic country and would provide Hinzman with a fair trial.
    So what do you think?

    Most Canadians usually have no issues with US Deserters and them coming across to our borders. It was a huge situation back in the Vietnam era where we let in thousands of dodgers/deserters:

    Canada and the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A large number of draft dodgers, young American men facing conscription for the Vietnam War, decided to flee to Canada rather than serve in the American armed forces. These young men became concentrated in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. They were at first assisted by the Student Union for Peace Action, a campus-based Canadian anti-war group with connections to Students for a Democratic Society in the United States. Canadian immigration policy at the time made it easy for immigrants from all countries to obtain legal status in Canada. By late 1967, dodgers were being assisted primarily by several locally based anti-draft groups (over twenty of them), such as the Toronto Anti-Draft Programme. As a counselor for the Programme, Mark Satin wrote the Manual for Draft-Age Immigrants to Canada, in 1968. It sold over 100,000 copies in eight editions.

    Following the draft-dodgers, deserters from the American forces also made their way to Canada. There was pressure from the United States and Canada to have them arrested, or at least stopped at the border. In May 1969 the Canadian government ceased its active discrimination against deserters, after facing extensive criticism.

    The influx of these young men, who in many cases were well educated and politically leftist, affected Canada's academic and cultural institutions, and Canadian society at large. These new arrivals tended to balance the "brain drain" that Canada had experienced. While some draft dodgers returned to the United States after they were pardoned by Jimmy Carter in 1977, roughly half of them stayed in Canada. The deserters have not been pardoned and may still face pro forma arrest and release, as the case of Allen Abney demonstrated in March 2006.

    Estimates of how many Americans settled in Canada to avoid service vary greatly. Canadian immigration statistics show that 20,000 to 30,000 draft-eligible American men came to Canada as immigrants during the Vietnam era; estimates of the total number of American citizens who moved to Canada due to their opposition to the war range from 50,000 to 125,000 This exodus was "the largest politically motivated migration from the United States since the United Empire Loyalists moved north to oppose the American Revolution." Major communities of war resisters formed in the Slocan Valley and on Baldwin Street in Toronto.
    So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in?

    I hear many hear say that if you don't like what's going on... to leave.... so these guys are trying to leave, only to be sent back.

    I think the big loophole here that's a difference between now and Vietnam, is there isn't a Draft factor in place.

    Personally, if they don't feel they should die for something they don't believe in, then they have a right to reject participation, and if heading to Canada is their answer, so be it. My opinion is you join up to the military to serve for your country and defend the people.... but this current situation is void of all of this.


  2. #2
    Hucking Fuskies HelioPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Conn
    Posts
    2,719
    Threads
    83
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Praxius View Post
    So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in?
    I'm not sure how the soldier and the military maintain their contract to serve but if you breach a contract your subject to punishment.

    If Helio is bought by Sprint and the service changes do I get to choose to ditch free of cost? No, I'd still have to pay the termination fee.

    What do you say to an atheist who sneezes?
    Yourdeadthatsit!


    - Dane Cook

  3. #3
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: HelioPrime View Post
    I'm not sure how the soldier and the military maintain their contract to serve but if you breach a contract your subject to punishment.

    If Helio is bought by Sprint and the service changes do I get to choose to ditch free of cost? No, I'd still have to pay the termination fee.
    No you wouldn't because it would be a completely different contract which you signed under Sprint, not Helio.... so one could fight it.... and if you can't and your stuck... then that would be one more reason why I don't have a cell phone ..... but that's besides the point.


  4. #4
    Hucking Fuskies HelioPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Conn
    Posts
    2,719
    Threads
    83
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Praxius View Post
    No you wouldn't because it would be a completely different contract which you signed under Sprint, not Helio.... so one could fight it.... and if you can't and your stuck... then that would be one more reason why I don't have a cell phone ..... but that's besides the point.
    When I had AT&T and it became cingular I called and said I didn't want to the service anymore. I was told I'd still have to pay the contract termination fee enough though I was going to have to change plans because Cing had a different price system.

    What do you say to an atheist who sneezes?
    Yourdeadthatsit!


    - Dane Cook

  5. #5
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    See that's something you should fight... anytime a price in the contract changes, then you should have to sign a new contract agreeing to those changes.... if not, then the contract should be null and void.

    If you rent an apartment and then a year later they jack your rent up without signing a new contract or you agreeing to the hike.... then there is no liability on your part, but you then have to vacate..... from my understanding.

    But besides the legal aspect of it all.... how about the moral human aspect?

    Thousands of dodgers/deserters flee to Canada and sometimes Mexico to avoid serving in a war they do not believe in, or feel strongly that it is wrong..... Most signed up to defend the nation in which they live in.... to defend and protect their families and loved ones.... but also to get education and help with college.

    But when the majority of the country you wish to protect is against a war you are about to serve in, and you yourself, as well as many other soldiers don't believe in the war.... shouldn't there be a method of opting out, or expressing your right of refusal?

    Sure when you sign into the military you are to take orders and go where you are told to go and do what you are told..... But if you can't even have faith or trust in your commanders in making the right decisions, then what is left to do besides suck it all up and wait to be blown up by a suicide bomber?

    The majority of Canadians, at least from polls I have read and my own communities in which I live in, only believe in going to war or to fight somewhere, if there are just principles behind them.

    Many opposed going to Afghanistan, and many still do, but also there has been the principle of helping out the people of Afghanistan after the US invasion... progress has been made and positive responses have come our way by the people, so there is a purpose at this point. If Afghanistan was exactly like Iraq, we wouldn't be there. Actually by 2009 we will be technically pulling out of operation, unless we voted for remaining in by a majority, which at this point doesn't seem likely.

    But as I see it... these US troops are being forced to fight in an unjust war with a high chance of dieing or being wounded for something nobody believes in and nobody back home will think of them as heroes for being over there, much like what happened in Vietnam..... If they don't go over to die in this foolish war, then they face going to military prison for many years.

    If the roles were reversed, I would hope the US would do the same thing for Canadian dodgers/deserters.


  6. #6
    Iceberg
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,792
    Threads
    24
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die?

    I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work.

    Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground.

    Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.

    Brien the Iceberg

    If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. M.T.

  7. #7
    Chancellor
    Guest
    Quote Quote by: Praxius View Post

    Jeremy Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible sentence of five years for desertion.
    (Canadian Press)


    Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters



    So what do you think?

    Most Canadians usually have no issues with US Deserters and them coming across to our borders. It was a huge situation back in the Vietnam era where we let in thousands of dodgers/deserters:

    Canada and the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in?

    I hear many hear say that if you don't like what's going on... to leave.... so these guys are trying to leave, only to be sent back.

    I think the big loophole here that's a difference between now and Vietnam, is there isn't a Draft factor in place.

    Personally, if they don't feel they should die for something they don't believe in, then they have a right to reject participation, and if heading to Canada is their answer, so be it. My opinion is you join up to the military to serve for your country and defend the people.... but this current situation is void of all of this.
    What I think is that they're in Canada illegally and should be deported. If they want to enter Canada then they need to go through the process set forth in Canadian immigration law.

    Now, with regard to this particular individual, he knew (or should have known) that when he joined the Army he could be sent into combat. If he didn't want to go to war, he should never have joined (of course, I'm writing this as someone who was in the first Gulf War).


  8. #8
    New member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    17
    Threads
    1
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Canada should deport all these deserters back to the United States. These men signed a deal with the military, agreeing to serve their country in the way their country saw fit. Just because you disagree with what your country is doing now, does not give you the right to breach the contract.


  9. #9
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: brien View Post
    When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die?

    I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work.

    Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground.

    Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.
    Ah but see, how can one have any devotion in taking another life for your country, if you don't believe there is justification for it? You need princples to fight and kill believe it or not, and many of these people joined with the thought of sacraficing themselves for their country and for a good cause.... but there is no good cause in this, and most of the country hates the war, so where's the sacrafice for a good cause?

    Granted, you will have your guys who wanted a quick way of getting education and money etc.... but logically one would think there were easier ways then to risk your life for these things... and if they knew they were gonna jump ship as soon as a war broke out, then they would also know the consiquences.

    I would say these guys are far from cowards, they are risking their own lives and the lives they knew back in the US, to refuse to fight in something they don't believe in.... it's not about contracts and responsibilities to them, it's about being human and risking military prison and freedom, to express their freedom of choice and knowing what is right and what is wrong, and if they feel what they would be doing would be wrong, then they have the right to refuse in my opinion.

    I know that's not how it is in some places, but I feel if I'm going to join in the military to fight in a war, it has to be just. There has to be principles besides oil and profit, or forcing a country to change to democracy and other political games.

    I feel I am defending the lives of those I know and grew up around. I have to feel that I would not be invading another country to pillage it.... or to kill someone who's defending their country because of my invasion.... they have something to belive in and fight for.....

    WWI people had things they fought and joined up for that they believed in. Canada was defined in the world because of our involvement in WWI and having one of the largest militaries of the time. WWII, people had things they believed in and fought for.... there was evidence, there was action, and people knew something had to be done.

    Then all of a sudden came the fake wars and the fake principles..... speculations to start wars.... lies to get profit. Soldier's lives for things that were no risk to the people they were intrusted to protect.

    In my view, they made the right choice and turning their backs on their own country is not an easy one for anybody.... that has been their entire lives.


  10. #10
    Mass'Debater Praxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, AUS
    Posts
    7,550
    Threads
    726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Chancellor View Post
    What I think is that they're in Canada illegally and should be deported. If they want to enter Canada then they need to go through the process set forth in Canadian immigration law.

    Now, with regard to this particular individual, he knew (or should have known) that when he joined the Army he could be sent into combat. If he didn't want to go to war, he should never have joined (of course, I'm writing this as someone who was in the first Gulf War).
    Ah, but as I see it, the Gulf War had something to fight for... Saddam took action and invaded another country.... they needed help, you guys went and took care of business... and it was quite effective I must say, good job.

    But did you believe in what you were doing? Did you believe that if you were killed, that it was for a good cause? That someone less fortunate would have benifited from your actions? Those are the core principles that I uphold that would justify myself risking my own life, or willing to take someone diserving's life.


  11. #11
    The Cake is a lie... Chaossaber314's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,765
    Threads
    42
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Praxius
    Ah but see, how can one have any devotion in taking another life for your country, if you don't believe there is justification for it? You need princples to fight and kill believe it or not, and many of these people joined with the thought of sacraficing themselves for their country and for a good cause....
    How about to fight for the lives of their friends who have been placed in danger by the actions of the Bush admin?

    Regardless of your stance on the war, the war is going on, and fellow military people are supposed to be their friends, their brothers. If my buddy gets in a drunken bar fight and is getting the crap kicked out of him, I don't leave him to get further hurt even if I know he started the fight.

    Though in this case you'd be helping the person who went to his friend's aid and not the one who started the fight.

    I have no respect for these deserters though I can see the argument that if they were willing to run away before they even saw the fight, I wouldn't want them watching my back.

    What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

  12. #12
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    272
    Threads
    6
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do you really want people that feels this strongly against the war in the military? How do you "support the troops", if the troops are unwilling, what would that entail?

    I also think that 5 years is a little severe. There should be consequences for breaking the contract, but in matters like this, would not a year or so community service and the fact that its harder to get a job with a criminal record be enough?

    When someone has volunteered to help and then does not want to help anymore when he sees what it entails, in matters with this serious consequences for the person, should he be so severly punished for.... saying he would help?
    What has he been given or what has been lost so far because of it and what should he have to pay for that?


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •