Question for Vegetarians

[texasdave]

We don't have to live without meat. No reason to give it up.

[Kuldeep]

There is no reason even to have it, as well. Rather, medical science says veg. food is less diseases prone.

[SoylentGreen]

Prohibition never works. Look what happened with alcohol.
If the government banned it then criminals will take advantage of it. Backyard slaughter houses and unsanitry conditions. No control of means of death or type of meat provided.
Eating or not eating meat is a moral descision and the government cannot legislate for morality effectivly.

[Captain Cardio]

Animals also kill other animals for food. Lions will even start eating their disabled prey while still alive! Animals are purely selfish beings that disregard suffering for their own survival.

Animal's don't know any better, but we do. Are we also going to be purely selfish beings that disregard suffering for our own survival? No wait, its disregard suffering for our own pleasure. Because we are not animals in the wild, we are humans at the supermarket who can choose to eat beans/soy/tofu even similuated meat, instead of killing. That's all eating meat is for us, pleasure, because we can survive just as well, infact better, on a non-meat diet.

I'm glad you saw I was only teasing about animal suffering. First, you have to realize animals do NOT feel pain the way you and I do. This was demonstrated to me by a veterenarian once when I had my dog spayed. I asked the vet if she needed painkillers after the surgery and he said animals are much less sensitive to pain than people. He took a piece of my dog's skin under an armpit ( legpit?) and pinched it till his fingers turned white. The dog just scooted over as if it was just uncomfortable. Pinching me in that spot would have made me scream. That's a tender place. The dog barely moved and did not cry out. Animals are tougher than people. We live in climate controlled environments. They live out in harsh environments.

That's an interesting scenario, but the conclusions you've drawn from it are a bit weak.

A dog has a different anatomy than us, we don't know that dogs don't experience the same level of pain as us, but just find certain things more painful than others. Also, in that situation, the dog's brain could have very well still been experiencing pain, but due to the circumstances (your presence, having been to the vet before, a primitive desire to not admit pain infront of an audience, etc...) tried to not demonstrate he was feeling the pain as much.

Even if in your dog genuinely did feel less pain, it would be a stretch to suddenly decide that all dogs or all animals feel less pain than humans all the time, as you must admit that your one experience here is a rare, and specific case. Most animals we deal with, exhibit the similar signs and reactions to pain that we do, when harm is inflicted (screaming(different sounds depending on the animal), avoidance, sudden hostility etc). I'm sure there are even humans who exhibit similar behaviour to your dog. We can do things we are sure would cause people pain, but wouldn't for some, like the guy at the freakshow who is fine with hammering nails into his nose, but curses when he accidentally misses and hits his thumb with the hammer.

Secondly, it is not morally wrong to kill for food. That is survival and humans have as much right to do that as animals do.

Humans are not dealing with a survival situation. And animals are not dealing with a choice situation, or with a brain that is capable of understanding morality. We are dealing with a human preference situation. The vegetarian diet has been studied by nutritionists for years and has been shown to be better in every facet of human health and development that we are aware of. The only reason it hasn't caught on is due to habit, and people's chemical craving for the taste of meat, that they don't feel compelled to use their willpower against.

What it comes down to, is when you're deciding what to eat for dinner,
You have the choice to either eat vegetables, where no sentient being is harmed in the process, or to eat meat, and ineffect consent to somebody causing an animal to suffer its whole life, and then be killed inhumanely, so that you can enjoy your meal slightly more. Survival for us, has nothing to do with it.

We don't have to live without meat. No reason to give it up.

That's true we don't have to live without meat, but there are certainly reasons to do so. It is bad for our health, does the worst harm to our environment even topping the oil industry, and upon facing the facts, is very questionable ethically, in that so many people passively accept an unnecessary process that in almost all current cases causes great suffering to take place.

[Osborn F Enready]

Meat and Vegetable diets are not equal to vegetable only diets, they are superior, and provide more longevity for the species of man overall.

How do you get 175 to 225 grams of protein in a vegetarian diet per day?
(No, not ALL people need this much protein, but some do.)

[Captain Cardio]

Meat and Vegetable diets are not equal to vegetable only diets, they are superior, and provide more longevity for the species of man overall.

The information that I've run across is apparently different than yours, I wonder where we could go to figure out who's got the correct impression? I'm sure your information would be correct if compared to a vegetarian diet that was not properly balanced. If a vegetarian diet is not managed properly, it can be harmful or less beneficial than a meat/veggie diet.

How do you get 175 to 225 grams of protein in a vegetarian diet per day?
(No, not ALL people need this much protein, but some do.)

Yeah some people do eat that much protein (although they need to be careful not to get protein poisoning) there are plenty of soy products, such as protein powder, simulated meat, soy protein bars, as well as planned mixes of certain vegetables(beans, rice, lentils etc) to create whole proteins.

When I used to run, between my soy milk and soy protein powder I got about 50grams of protein in one shake. I usually ate that with some peanut butter bread and some baked beans, and thats up to like 80-90grams, in one meal.

I've got a book thats half the width of a phone book called "Getting Stronger" about different exercises and body building. Theres a guy who looks like he is frame is twice as wide as most people's on the cover, and thats the author, who explains in the book that he's a vegetarian.

Granted, given the widespread acceptance of meat eating, it is a bit inconvient at first, trying to make equally nutritious or protein rich meals, but from what I've heard so far, we are better off in almost all respects with a vegetarian diet.

[Osborn F Enready]

Captain Cardio said:
The information that I've run across is apparently different than yours, I wonder where we could go to figure out who's got the correct impression? I'm sure your information would be correct if compared to a vegetarian diet that was not properly balanced. If a vegetarian diet is not managed properly, it can be harmful or less beneficial than a meat/veggie diet.

Question.

Is an engine that can run on two fuels more valuable than an engine that can run on only one fuel, if both fuels have a distinct possibility of becoming short or unavailable in that engines span of life?

Man benefits from being able to eat both vegetables and meat, even if only from the point of longevity of the species and ability to adapt to diverse and changing enviroments.

Captain Cardio said:
Yeah some people do eat that much protein (although they need to be careful not to get protein poisoning) there are plenty of soy products, such as protein powder, simulated meat, soy protein bars, as well as planned mixes of certain vegetables(beans, rice, lentils etc) to create whole proteins.

Isn't the poisoning from excess Urea created from the processing of the large amounts of protein? (curious if we are aware of the same risks)

What if that person is allergic to soy protein?

Captain Cardio said:
When I used to run, between my soy milk and soy protein powder I got about 50grams of protein in one shake. I usually ate that with some peanut butter bread and some baked beans, and thats up to like 80-90grams, in one meal.

I agree, pretty well rounded, though we could debate on the value of the protein from soy as compared to whey protein, or white meat chicken protein and digestability.

Captain Cardio said:
I've got a book thats half the width of a phone book called "Getting Stronger" about different exercises and body building. Theres a guy who looks like he is frame is twice as wide as most people's on the cover, and thats the author, who explains in the book that he's a vegetarian.

I am aware of the possibilities, but also recognize the severe limitations of diet when limited by allergies, or other issues (including cost), and don't think vegetarian only diets are as beneficial unless by choice and unique requirements.

Captain Cardio said:
Granted, given the widespread acceptance of meat eating, it is a bit inconvient at first, trying to make equally nutritious or protein rich meals, but from what I've heard so far, we are better off in almost all respects with a vegetarian diet.

Well, that is highly debateable, and I surely would not be happier, or healthier, as I have experimented with my diet regarding things like this.

My body digests whey protein far easier than soy, and I am highly skeptical of the value of soy to men who seek higher testosterone levels for muscle growth and vascularity. Soy is still not as valued as whey protein, for many good reasons.

[texasdave]

If someone wants to be a vegetarian or a vegan that is fine with me. It is also fine to eat meat. Animals are a renewable resource like plants and we should have the freedom to eat them. There is a place in this world for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatos and gravy!!

[Hmm]

This thread has pretty much gone completely off topic.

The original post was about whether vegetarians would settle with using persuasion to convert people to vegetarians or if they would use government force.

The answer to the question is simple, and frankly, I don't see why we are still debating this.

[texasdave]

So, persuasion it is then?

[Hmm]

So, persuasion it is then?

I would hope that that would be the response of all vegetarians. Yet again, there are some radicals. :rolleyes:

[texasdave]

Radicals? You mean they might beat me with a carrot? LOL