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Thread: A Different take on evolution and Creation

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    READ...MY...HANDS!!! dthmstr254's Avatar
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    A Different take on evolution and Creation

    Ok, we all seem to have something in common in these types of debates, so I want to focus on it from a different point of view. I want to have people here, instead of pointing out the strengths of their own beliefs and stands, to focus on the weaknesses of their own beliefs. Since I am posting the first post here, I will give the weaknesses as I see them on both of them. Starting with my own, and I will note the similarities:

    Creation:
    Not science.
    Cannot be observed or duplicated.
    Is based on faith in a book (albeit a very historically accurate book, but that is off the point).
    Presumes God's existence.

    Evolution:
    Claims to be science, yet
    cannot be observed or duplicated.
    Is based on faith in science textbooks.
    In Science textbooks that display evolution in a positive light, they disguise certain facts that would possibly cripple evolution (Ie, the change in the knowledge of the primordial atmosphere completely screwed over the Miller-Urey experiment.)
    Presumes the non-existence of God.

    Now, since it is here, have fun with it, but I beg you to be honest and admit where the arguments have holes in YOUR beliefs, instead of focusing on the holes of others.

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    Claims to be science, yet
    cannot be observed or duplicated.
    I take it you are willfully ignorant of the subject.

    Experimental evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Lizard experiment suggests rapid evolution

    Evolution: Fact and Theory by Richard E. Lenski, Ph.D.

    Is based on faith in science textbooks.
    No.. Science textbooks are based in science, not the other way around.

    In Science textbooks that display evolution in a positive light, they disguise certain facts that would possibly cripple evolution (Ie, the change in the knowledge of the primordial atmosphere completely screwed over the Miller-Urey experiment.)
    The Miller-Urey experiment had to do with abiogenesis, not evolution.

    Besides, objections to the experiment had to do with the quantities used. It would be foolish to completely discount the results based on that (Not to mention assuming the opposite).

    Presumes the non-existence of God.
    Sure, it presumes the non-existence of the (albeit impossible) tri-omni, Christian god of the bible.


  3. #3
    sdbest
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    Actually, dthmstr254, every time a bacteria evolves and reproduces as a consequence of an antibiotic, evolution (i.e. natural selection) is observed. With the exception of speculating about a supernatural being, all of your premises about evolution are demonstrably false. So there's not much that can be said about your topic.

    Regards
    S.


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    99 Red Balloons Jagged's Avatar
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    Presumes the non-existence of God.
    Not true at all.


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    Libertarian Keith Hamburger's Avatar
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    You people aren't playing by the rules set out in the OP.

    Personally, I'm not sure I could do it, so, I'll just end with my comment that you're not playing by the rules.

    Keith

    The great thread killer.

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    Quote Quote by: Keith Hamburger View Post
    You people aren't playing by the rules set out in the OP.

    Personally, I'm not sure I could do it, so, I'll just end with my comment that you're not playing by the rules.

    Keith
    Well, the OP didn't play by the rules set out in the OP. And since dthmstr254 pretended to give his opinion of both positions, I think I should be able to answer his misstatements. He says that we should concentrate on the holes in our own position and not in the opposing position, and then he does the opposite.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Creation:
    Not science.
    True.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Cannot be observed or duplicated.
    True.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Is based on faith in a book (albeit a very historically accurate book, but that is off the point).
    Actually, the book isn't historically accurate, especially the books of mythology. Other books are obviously intended as moral tales and not even meant to be taken as history.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Presumes God's existence.
    True.

    And after all that, why didn't dthmstr254 actually point out the weak points of creationism?
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Evolution:
    Claims to be science, yet
    cannot be observed or duplicated.
    Actually, it is frequently observed and has been duplicated as well as predicted.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Is based on faith in science textbooks.
    No it's not. That's just an attempt to lower science to the level of superstition like creationism.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    In Science textbooks that display evolution in a positive light, they disguise certain facts that would possibly cripple evolution (Ie, the change in the knowledge of the primordial atmosphere completely screwed over the Miller-Urey experiment.)
    The problem with that statement has already been pointed out. Another problem is that Miller and Urey weren't trying to create life. They were trying to find out if amino acids could be produced by electrical sparks in a reducing atmosphere.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254
    Presumes the non-existence of God.
    It does no such thing. Perhaps you aren't aware that there are lots of people who don't agree with your religious beliefs who, nevertheless, believe in God.


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    As mentioned above, there does exist a certain amount of "evidence" for evolution. The fact that there are holes in the theory only confirm that it is only a theory, nevertheless one that is much more sound from a scientific perspective than creationism, which does not necessarily make creationism bad. Creationism, regardless of proponents' attempts to integrate it into the same framework of study as evolution, is not meant to be analyzed from the same framework or with the same standards as evolution. It's non-falsifiable because it's fundamentally based on faith, something that proponents of evolution cannot seem to grasp. I think that's why proponents of evolution get so frustrated when trying to debate with creationists; there's no common ground. I personally am atheist, but recognize that there is always room for spirituality outside of explicable science.


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    Quote Quote by: BruceWillis View Post
    As mentioned above, there does exist a certain amount of "evidence" for evolution.
    If by 'certain amount of "evidence" for evolution' you mean libraries full of research papers and books that present evidence, place it in a larger context of related concepts and ideas, make predictions from those concepts, and then test those predictions to the extent that not granting tentative acceptance of the major tenets would be foolish, I agree; there does exist a certain amount of "evidence" for evolution.
    Quote Quote by: BruceWillis View Post
    The fact that there are holes in the theory only confirm that it is only a theory, nevertheless one that is much more sound from a scientific perspective than creationism, which does not necessarily make creationism bad.
    I understand, Bruce, that you probably don't have a scientific background and actually don't understand the terminology that you are using. But it worries me that you are making creationist arguments that rely on using non-scientific meanings for words in a scientific context. For example, "it is only a theory" relies on the incorrect understanding of the word theory. In bars and churches everywhere a theory is little better than a wild guess. In those circles, some hokus-pokus is then performed that "proves" the theory, at which point it becomes a fact. That's not science and that's not what a scientist means when he refers to a body of explanatory knowledge as a theory.

    For example, gravity is a theory (and a quite weak one at that). We operate nuclear power plants and explode nuclear bombs based on nuclear theory. Hopefully, no one will guess wrong and get the two crossed. It is a scientific theory that the moon orbits the earth and that the earth, along with the other planets, orbits the sun.

    In science, a theory is as good as it gets. It means that from some observation(s) an hypothesis (an educated guess) is made in an effort to explain it/them. Then a prediction of some possible observation is made that must be true if the hypothesis is correct. Then an experiment is devised to test the prediction. If it passes, and if the experiment was significant enough, then the hypothesis may be called a theory. In science, facts are the observations - the data.
    Quote Quote by: BruceWillis View Post
    Creationism, regardless of proponents' attempts to integrate it into the same framework of study as evolution, is not meant to be analyzed from the same framework or with the same standards as evolution. It's non-falsifiable because it's fundamentally based on faith, something that proponents of evolution cannot seem to grasp.
    Actually, proponents of evolution grasp quite well that creationism is based on faith that is unsupported by any empirical evidence. That creationism does not meet the Popperian requirement of falsifiability is often pointed out by scientists.

    Of course, you are correct to note that creationists attempt to elevate their faith the the intellectual level of science by claiming that their faith is scientific (creation science), or they try to lower science to the level of faith.
    Quote Quote by: BruceWillis View Post
    I think that's why proponents of evolution get so frustrated when trying to debate with creationists; there's no common ground.
    Actually, the common ground is provided by creationists when they try to assert their mythology as science. By doing so, they subject faith to scientific questioning. So far, it has failed on all fronts. For example, there is the recently jailed creation science preacher, Mr. Kent Hovind. Anyone with an ounce of sense or a drop of curiosity can quite quickly debunk his "science." The same is true of Mr. Carl Baugh (I've seen his dog and pony show twice), another creation science preacher who does a lot of bait and switch along with "the Bible says."
    Quote Quote by: BruceWillis View Post
    I personally am atheist, but recognize that there is always room for spirituality outside of explicable science.
    Actually, you seem to be more of an agnostic - "maybe the supernatural exists, I just don't know".

    I must say that I admire the fact that, in your post, you didn't misspell a single word or make any grammatical error that I noticed. As a result, I have some confidence that you will grasp my point.


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    BANNED Zhavric's Avatar
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    Woohoo! Another creationist mischaracterization of evolution to tear in half over my knee. Joy.

    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254 View Post
    Evolution:
    Claims to be science, yet
    cannot be observed or duplicated.
    Incomplete and wrongly stated as always.

    "Duplicate" doesn't mean scientists are under an obligation to reproduce a given phenomenon in a laboratory. Look at astronomy for a moment. Should we expect scientists to be creating stars in laboratories? Should we toss out the discipline of astronomy and astrophysics if we are unable to accomplish this feat?

    Of course not.

    Duplicate simply means that any scientist anywhere when given the same observed information will reach the same logical conclusion. An astronomer in South Africa should see the same sun as an Astronomer in Alaska a world away.

    Evolution is duplicatable in that fossils and information seen in species can be verified by hosts of scientists everywhere... those that aren'ton the payrole of ID supporters that is.

    Is based on faith in science textbooks.
    What a silly assertion?

    Faith is defined as belief without evidence. Science is the opposite; drawing conclusions from the evidence we have observed (either with our 5 senses or with assistance). Attempting to project theological shortcomings onto science is about as mature as calling a court of justice a lynch mob.

    (Ie, the change in the knowledge of the primordial atmosphere completely screwed over the Miller-Urey experiment.)
    ROFLMAO

    See!? This is why I love these discussions. I can always count on theists to dredge some propaganda based on flawed information from before the Reagan administration.

    Prebiotic Oxygen. A key question in origin-of-life research is the oxidation state of the prebiotic atmosphere (the current best guess is that the origin of life occurred somewhere around 4.0-3.7 bya (billion years ago)). Wells wants you to think that there is good evidence for significant amounts free oxygen in the prebiotic atmosphere (significant amounts of free oxygen make the atmosphere oxidizing and make Miller-Urey-type experiments fail). He spends several pages (14-19) on a pseudo-discussion of the oxygen issue, citing sources from the 1970's and writing that (p. 17) "the controversy has never been resolved", that "Evidence from early rocks has been inconclusive," and concluding that the current geological consensus -- that oxygen was merely a trace gas before approximately 2.5 bya and only began rising after this point -- was due to "Dogma [taking] the place of empirical evidence" (p. 18). None of this is true (see e.g. Copley, 2001).

    Certain minerals, such as uraninite, cannot form under significant exposure to oxygen. Thick deposits of these rocks are found in rocks older than 2.5 bya years ago, indicating that essentially no oxygen (only trace amounts) was present. On page 17 Wells notes that uraninite deposits have been found in more recent rocks, but neglects to mention to his readers that these only occur under rapid-burial conditions, whereas ancient deposits of uraninite occur in slow deposition conditions, for example in sediments laid down by rivers, so that the minerals were exposed to atmospheric gases for significant periods of time before burial.

    'Red beds' are geologic features containing highly oxidized iron (rust) indicative of high amounts of oxygen. Wells (p. 17) notes that red beds are found before 2 bya, but fails to mention that the temporal limit of red beds is just a few hundred million years before 2 bya.

    Wells doesn't even mention the evidence that banded iron formations (incompletely oxidized iron indicative of ultralow-oxygen conditions) are very common prior to 2.3 bya and very rare afterwards.

    Wells also doesn't mention that early paleosols (fossil soils) from about ~2.5 bya contain unoxidized cerium, impossible in an oxygenic atmosphere (e.g., Murakami et al., 2001).

    Finally, Wells doesn't mention to his readers that pyrite, a mineral even more vulnerable to oxidation than uraninite, is found unoxidized in pre-2.5 bya rocks, and with significant evidence of long surface exposure (i.e. grains weathered by water erosion; e.g. Rasmussen and Buick, 1999).

    Why does Wells leave out the converging independent lines of geological evidence pointing to an anoxic early (pre ~2.5 bya) atmosphere?

    Was the prebiotic atmosphere reducing? Are the Miller-Urey experiments "irrelevant"? The famous Miller-Urey experiments used a strongly reducing atmosphere to produce amino acids. It is important to realize that the original experiment is famous not so much for the exact mixture used, but for the unexpected discovery that such a simple experiment could indeed produce crucial biological compounds; this discovery instigated a huge amount of related research that continues today.

    Now, current geochemical opinion is that the prebiotic atmosphere was not so strongly reducing as the original Miller-Urey atmosphere, but opinion varies widely from moderately reducing to neutral. Completely neutral atmospheres would be bad for Miller-Urey-type experiments, but even a weakly reducing atmosphere will produce lower but significant amounts of amino acids. In the approximately two pages of text where Wells actually discusses the reducing atmosphere question (p. 20-22), Wells cites some more 1970's sources and then asserts that the irrelevance of the Miller-Urey experiment has become a "near-consensus among geochemists" (p. 21).

    This statement is misleading. What geochemists agree on is that if the early earth's mantle was of the same composition as the modern mantle and if only terrestrial volcanic sources are considered as contributing to the atmosphere, and if the temperature profile of the early atmosphere was the same as modern earth (this is relevant to rates of hydrogen escape) then there will be much less hydrogen compared to Miller's first atmosphere (20% total atm.). Even if this worst-case scenario is accepted, hydrogen will not be completely absent, in fact there is a long list of geochemists that consider hydrogen to have been present (although in lower amounts, roughly 0.1-1% of the total atmosphere). At these levels of H2 there is still significant (although much lower) amino acid production.

    Also, many geochemists think that these conditions do not represent the early earth, contrary to the impression given by Wells. For example, on p. 20, Wells mentions terrestrial volcanos emitting neutral gases (H2O, CO2, N2, and only trace H2), but he fails to mention that mid-ocean ridge vents could have been significant sources of reduced gases -- they are important sources of reduced atmospheric gases even today, emitting about 1% methane (Kasting and Brown, 1998) and producing reduced hydrogen and hydrogen sulfide (e.g. Kelley et al., 2001; Perkins, 2001; Von Damm, 2001) and potentially ammonia prebiotically (Brandes et al., 1998; Chyba, 1998). Why does Wells exclude oceanic vents from consideration?

    Another strange omission is that Wells completely fails to mention the extraterrestrial evidence, which is the only direct evidence we have of the kinds of chemical reactions that might have occurred in the early solar system. For example he neglects to mention the famous Murchison meteorite, which contains mixtures of organic compounds much like those produced in Miller-Urey style experiments, and which constitutes direct evidence that just the right kind of prebiotic chemistry was occurring at least somewhere in the early solar system, and that some of those products found their way to earth (see e.g. Engel and Macko, 2001 for a recent review).

    Wells asserts that since the 1970's, non-reducing atmospheres have become the "near-consensus." The latest article that Wells cites supporting this view, however, is a 1995 nontechnical news article in Science (Cohen, 1995). Why doesn't he quote Kral et al. (1998), who write,

    The standard theory for the origin of life postulates that life arose from an abiotically produced soup of organic material (e.g., Miller, 1953; Miller, 1992). The first organism would have therefore been a heterotroph deriving energy from this existing pool of nutrients. This theory for the origin of life is not without competitors (for a review of theories for the origins of life see Davis and McKay, 1996), but has received considerable support from laboratory experiments in which it has been demonstrated that biologically relevant organic materials can be easily synthesized from mildly reducing mixtures of gases (e.g., Chang et al., 1983). The discovery of organics in comets (e.g., Kissel and Kruger, 1987), on Titan (e.g., Sagan et al., 1984), elsewhere in the outer solar system (e.g., Encrenaz, 1986), as well as in the interstellar medium (e.g., Irvine and Knacke, 1989) has further strengthened the notion that organic material was abundant prior to the origin of life.

    Source.

    Feel free to keep posting whatever dishonest abortion of science you care to. The truth is more powerful than all your propaganda. I find this greatly entertaining.

    Presumes the non-existence of God.
    Presumption is the province of theists, not scientists.

    There is no evidence supporting the god hypothesis (which is a scientific hypothesis to be sure).


    P.S. Salvatore couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag. Wulfgar is boring. Bruenor is like every other dwarf in every other fantasy novel and don't get me started on how inept & clumsy drizzt was hammered together. "I'm the super goody two shoes dark elf ranger who goes around MURDERING intelligent beings with my two scimitars. Look how emo I am..."


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    BANNED Zhavric's Avatar
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    By the by... I know theists will avoid it like the truth, but I'll post it anyway.

    Below is a link to a site that has recorded & observed instances of speciation. Evolution is nothing more than speciation which happens over and over until the original organism changes into something different.

    Observed Instances of Speciation


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    Quote Quote by: gallo View Post
    In science, a theory is as good as it gets. It means that from some observation(s) an hypothesis (an educated guess) is made in an effort to explain it/them. Then a prediction of some possible observation is made that must be true if the hypothesis is correct. Then an experiment is devised to test the prediction. If it passes, and if the experiment was significant enough, then the hypothesis may be called a theory. In science, facts are the observations - the data.
    I don't think I clarified what I meant by what I said in my post. I wasn't trying to undermine the reliability of scientific theories. My comment was more of a cursory response to the original poster who tried to compare evolution and creationism on the same level. I meant that whatever holes do exist in evolution, that doesn't mean we should default to creationism as an explanation for the origin of man. My apologies if I didn't make that clear.

    Quote Quote by: gallo View Post
    If by 'certain amount of "evidence" for evolution' you mean libraries full of research papers and books that present evidence, place it in a larger context of related concepts and ideas, make predictions from those concepts, and then test those predictions to the extent that not granting tentative acceptance of the major tenets would be foolish, I agree; there does exist a certain amount of "evidence" for evolution.
    Re-reading my post, I have no idea now why I put "evidence" in qutoation marks like that and I certainly didn't mean to doubt its existence in the way that many right-wingers mean when they do that to phrases such as global warming or diversity.

    Quote Quote by: gallo View Post
    Actually, the common ground is provided by creationists when they try to assert their mythology as science. By doing so, they subject faith to scientific questioning. So far, it has failed on all fronts. For example, there is the recently jailed creation science preacher, Mr. Kent Hovind. Anyone with an ounce of sense or a drop of curiosity can quite quickly debunk his "science." The same is true of Mr. Carl Baugh (I've seen his dog and pony show twice), another creation science preacher who does a lot of bait and switch along with "the Bible says."
    Again, let me clarify. Although, like you, I don't like the way that religion is being used by many to influence public policy or to conflate creationism with science, I think spirituality does have a place among many in our society, that is to provide some people with moral guidance. That was the original purpose of religion and that can still be seen today. Yes, creationism may not be the best thing when taught in science classrooms, but in a purely spiritual framework, it can serve the same purposes as the fables everyone hears as a child that imply morals or aphorisms to live by. At the same time that people like Fred Phelps and Carl Baugh try to use their faith to influence policy, many other religious individuals don't; they recognize their faith as faith, for individual growth that they don't need science to explain. Many of these people value this kind of moral growth over objective knowledge. What I meant by "common ground" is just this. Some proponents of evolution vehemently attack religious individuals because they can't stand the fact that not everybody has the same standards or values as themselves.

    Quote Quote by: gallo View Post
    Actually, you seem to be more of an agnostic - "maybe the supernatural exists, I just don't know".
    I am agnostic about god the same way that I am agnostic about fairies.


  12. #12
    Volcanic Erupter RickSp's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254 View Post
    Evolution:
    Claims to be science, yet cannot be observed or duplicated.
    Evolution can in fact be observed and duplicated in scientific terms in a myriad of ways.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254 View Post
    Is based on faith in science textbooks.
    In Science textbooks that display evolution in a positive light, they disguise certain facts that would possibly cripple evolution (Ie, the change in the knowledge of the primordial atmosphere completely screwed over the Miller-Urey experiment.)
    This is just stupid. Evolution as a theory is not based on faith in anything, and certainly not text books. If certain text books are badly written, that says nothing about the theory itself, only about the sorry state of many text books.
    Quote Quote by: dthmstr254 View Post
    Presumes the non-existence of God.
    Ridiculous. It presumes no such thing.

    Rick

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

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