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Thread: The problem with NDE's

  1. #13
    READ...MY...HANDS!!! dthmstr254's Avatar
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    Ok, just to put this down, I have been on an extended LOA from the site to do college and my summer.

    Now, to the topic: In a "typical good clinical death experience," a certain sequence of events is generally followed, summarized in the list below. Before reading the list, you should note that not all people report every stage, as would be expected when the ego effects the thinking process. (also note that I cite Phil Phillips's book Angels Angels Angels) The person:

    1. Senses he is dying and begins to feel blissful.
    2. Leaves his body, is surprised to see the body remaining behind, and has a heightened state of euphoria.
    3. Is unable to communicate with the living but may recall details of the room, various procedures being done to their bodies, or what people say.
    4. Enters an area of darkness, commonly described as a tunnel.
    5. Moves at increasing speed and encounters a light.
    6. This "light" turns out to be a "being of light," known or unknown. The person may have a sense of blending with the light. Sometimes the being is someone from the person's past, or it may be a religious entity, and sometimes even Jesus Himself. This being ALWAYS seems very familiar and loving. (note the reverse of what is reported here also happens. Will explain more in the post.)
    7. Enters a new world, usually a garden. The person often reports hearing music, singing, or beautiful sound.
    8. May experience a panoramic life review. Thought seems to replace the need for speech.
    9. May have an encounter with relatives or friends who have died previously.
    10. Enters a world that is exquisite beyond words, filled with beauty and sights that cannot be described.
    11. May encounter a barrier, such as a fence, wall, or river. Attempting to pass this barrier, he is often told to return to life or that it is time to go back to the body.
    12. Returns to the body, often with an understanding that this was "not their time."

    Dr Susan Blackmore of the Brain and Perception Laboratory at Bristol University has an explanation for the tunnel, and I will add some more of my own knowledge from a dream hypothesis.

    "The vital cells that normally regulate the activity in the visual sector of the brain-the visual cortex- are seriously inhibited by the increasing lack of sensory information. This destabilizes the normal visual controls, producing stripes of irregular activity. As this information travels between the retina of the eye and the brain, the stripes are interpreted as being concentric rings, tunnels, or undulating spirals, light in the center and darker at the edges....The mind latches onto these tunnel images and accepts them as a new actuality."

    To explain this in another way, it is like tinnitus for the eye. Tinnitus is a symptom of deafness due to the failure of the auditory nerve. The part of the brain that deals with hearing is inhibited because of the lack of input, and starts randomly firing, creating a ringing sensation, much like I get when the fluid in my ears (due to Otitis Media with Effusion) packs so tightly against the eardrum that I don't hear anything. That is why I classify myself as Hard of Hearing (HOH).

    As for the other parts, as the mind slips into unconsciousness, it starts doing the same thing it does during the REM stage, without the movements of the eyes. The brain waves shorten and the mind starts recalling things that would be familiar. You might notice a trend where people of different cultures will have different NDE's. A deaf person might have all communication in ASL. Indians often meet a messenger who looks at a list and sees they aren;t ready for the afterlife yet.

    Now to another question I implied earlier: Do any near-death survivors go to hell?

    So much has been written by New Age writers about near-death and death experiences resulting in a beautiful afterlife that we sometimes forget that not all people who supposedly have those experiences go to a place of comfort and beauty.

    A book about such experiences has been written by Maurice S. Rawlings, M.D. In 1997, Dr Rawlings described one of his rescuscitated patients this way:

    "He had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling--he looked as if his hair was standing on end. 'Don't stop. Don't let me go back to hell!' he pleaded desperately."

    The hell his patients describe is often desolate, windy, arid, superheated, empty, "full of eyes," and is filled with a sound of moaning. The ground is rocky or gritty and the air dark or sulfurous. Shadowy figures may lurk in the background, but they seem oblivious to the newcomer. The overwhelming feeling is one of despair and isolation.

    Others who claim to have gone to hell as part of a NDE recall:

    Cramped quarters or a feeling of being stifled
    Screaming
    Being totally alone
    Frightening voids
    Menacing voices
    Violence
    A feeling of being trapped
    Blackness
    A heavy "pressurized" feeling of being crushed
    Great despondency
    Dry, dehydrating heat and scorching
    Overwhelming loneliness
    Moving through a vacuum
    Themselves shrieking or crying in great fear

    No report from those who have been "to hell and back" report seeing Satan there. If they really were there, it is because Satan is not there yet according to Revelations 20:10.

    I hope you guys have fun with this.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    HOUSE: There's a bullet in his head.

    CAMERON: He was shot?

    HOUSE: No … somebody threw it at him.

  2. #14
    BANNED Zhavric's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Rainbow
    Syllogism.
    Since we do not know everything about the brain, there are no valid and/or scientificaly supported means, in order to verify it.
    Oy... post-modernism rears its ugly head in yet another discussion.

    We do not know everything about the brain, but we don't need to know everything about to know certain specific things. We know that thoughts are electro-chemical pathways through clusters of neurons. Simply because we don't have them mapped doesn't mean theyy're being "beamed in" from elsewhere. Point being that we have a lot of evidence suggesting that thoughts are to the brain as Microsoft Excel is to your computer's hardware. We have ZERO evidence suggesting any outside influence or interaction of any kind beyond sensory stimuli.


  3. #15
    Shifting Paradigms Captain Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    Another crucial component of NDEs is the life review. This occurs as a consistent process. A guide meets you, shows you the highlights of your life, comments on the things you did well and the things you did badly, and sometimes even shows you how your actions affected others, from their point of view.
    Ever seen any of the old 50's films of people who would gather in the dessert to meet up with UFO's?
    Again, Zhavric, what is the materialist explanation for the life review, and the fact that it occurs in a consistent fashion across different cultures - even before discussion of NDEs became a topic of popular conversation?

    Do all things with love.

  4. #16
    Shifting Paradigms Captain Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Zinkovich
    Captain Chaos can you give me some in depth books, from both the skeptical and non-skeptical sides, covering NDE's without all the, well, prostelytizing? You know what I mean.

    What is your take on the centrifuge tests by the airforce that shows NDE's can be consistently triggered under high gravitic conditions after passing out?

    I must admit I have more to read. If anyone has more material, I will take it into consideration. However, so far I find it likely that the cause is NOT supernatural.

    It probably is similar accross cultures because NDE's may involve the same sort of hallucinigenic state in the brain. For an example of symptoms being the same amongst cultures in the NDE sense, read up on some of the studies collected on hallucinegenic drugs such as LSD. The state triggered by LSD is also the same across cultures, so it would make for an interesting comparison, to say the least. If you wait a while I will find some relevant studies.
    Well, the best place to start would be www.iands.org

    However, I am not aware of any neutral analyses of NDEs. They are all either pro or con. Thus, we have to just read both sides and decide which explanation seems a best fit for reality.


    Centrifuge experiments are not the only means of inducing an NDE. Are you aware of any studies performed during those NDEs to obtain veridical information? I know that an OBE induced during a dream-like state is not of much use for gathering veridical information. However, hospital NDEs do seem to allow for this. I would be very interested to know if this has been tested in centrifuge-induced NDEs. They involve loss of blood to the brain as the trigger - which is the same for cardiac-arrest NDEs.

    I do not subscribe to the Journal of Near Death studies, which contains a more in-depth study of centrifuge-induced NDEs. That study would certainly be worth reading.



    In a life review, a guide meets you, shows highlights of your life, and explains how your actions affected others. This does not seem like something that should occur randomly across cultures. What chemicals in the brain would cause you to interact with an imaginary guide who takes these specific actions? It just seems too specific for that explanation.

    Do all things with love.

  5. #17
    Shifting Paradigms Captain Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    Quote Quote by: Rainbow
    Syllogism.
    Since we do not know everything about the brain, there are no valid and/or scientificaly supported means, in order to verify it.
    Oy... post-modernism rears its ugly head in yet another discussion.

    We do not know everything about the brain, but we don't need to know everything about to know certain specific things. We know that thoughts are electro-chemical pathways through clusters of neurons. Simply because we don't have them mapped doesn't mean theyy're being "beamed in" from elsewhere. Point being that we have a lot of evidence suggesting that thoughts are to the brain as Microsoft Excel is to your computer's hardware. We have ZERO evidence suggesting any outside influence or interaction of any kind beyond sensory stimuli.
    Actually, we do. In fact there is plenty of such evidence. The evidence may be imperfect, but it is not non-existent. There are all sorts of paranormal researchers who publish such studies.

    A better claim would be that we lack reliable evidence, not there is zero evidence. Honesty please - it would help people take your debating more seriously.

    Do all things with love.

  6. #18
    Shifting Paradigms Captain Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Zinkovich
    Quote Quote by: Amuse
    People- the brain is not a depository of information, it is only a processor of information and a poor one at that. The proscessing that takes place is also influenced by the ego which more times than not is false and highly positional with regards to self preservation and determined by scocietal position, status and soul evolution.

    There are three levels of consiousness- 1) consciousness = physical awareness which is corporeal, 2) subconsciousness = dream/ out of body state, the bridge between conscious and supraconscious, 3) supraconsciousness = connection to all that is/ the Self/God consciousness.

    These three levels, of course, are the result of pure speculation I take it?

    Please, post your proofs that NDE is a bridge to a higher conciousness and not a hallucination.

    A further quesiton: Have you ever done hallucingenic drugs? You'll be amazed at the sort of stuff you see, that is a result of purely your own ego and not real.
    One method of inducing an NDE is through the use of the drug Ketamine. Karl Jansen, a noted Ketamine researcher, began his career with the belief that it was solely an inside-the-mind experience. He later came to believe that, in fact, ketamine may alter the brain in such a way that it allows one to interact with other worlds.

    I do not feel that proves anything, just that it is interesting that he changed his view.

    Do all things with love.

  7. #19
    Esquire Dan_77's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    3) They prove nothing.

    You went clinically dead and came back. Your brain worked before. Your brain works after. Even if you flatline, it's far more likely that your brain was semi-working while you were under... (Remember that many hospitals don't attach brain wave monitors to trauma patients.) ... than something mystical happened to a non-existant "soul" you've convinced yourself you have.

    If we wanted to, we could spend days imagining supernatural elements for every aspect of our bodies.
    So what? Certain people believe they have had a religious experience, and use that as a springboard to better their lives. Other people recognize them as dellusional hallucinations, and are just glad to be alive. What does it hurt anyone else to think either way?

    NDE's just evidence that we don't know everything about the brain. Calling them anything beyond hallucinations is just a form of god-of-gaps reasoning.
    I love your reasoning in all these religion-is-crap debates you put forth. You admit that we don't know everything and argue that we cannot have any belief beyond what we know(about the brain, the universe, etc), and then use the tiny percentage of everything that we do know as Absolute Unassailable Proof of the Truth that nothing supernatural exists.

    Excuse me for being ad homenim, but what is your problem with religion? So you think religious people are stupid, okay, so what? I think people who use heroin are stupid, but they're not hurting me.

    You disagree with some of the greatest thinkers in the history of mankind whose personal beliefs are pegged by Gould's non-overlapping magisteria - People like Einstein, for example.

    "But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you." - South Park on Richard Dawkins

  8. #20
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    Oy... post-modernism rears its ugly head in yet another discussion.

    We do not know everything about the brain, but we don't need to know everything about to know certain specific things. We know that thoughts are electro-chemical pathways through clusters of neurons. Simply because we don't have them mapped doesn't mean theyy're being "beamed in" from elsewhere. Point being that we have a lot of evidence suggesting that thoughts are to the brain as Microsoft Excel is to your computer's hardware. We have ZERO evidence suggesting any outside influence or interaction of any kind beyond sensory stimuli.
    Can you provide some data, in order to support your claims ?


  9. #21
    Shifting Paradigms Captain Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Rainbow
    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    Oy... post-modernism rears its ugly head in yet another discussion.

    We do not know everything about the brain, but we don't need to know everything about to know certain specific things. We know that thoughts are electro-chemical pathways through clusters of neurons. Simply because we don't have them mapped doesn't mean theyy're being "beamed in" from elsewhere. Point being that we have a lot of evidence suggesting that thoughts are to the brain as Microsoft Excel is to your computer's hardware. We have ZERO evidence suggesting any outside influence or interaction of any kind beyond sensory stimuli.
    Can you provide some data, in order to support your claims ?
    Rainbow, Zhavric believes that materialist claims should be assumed true by default. He will offer lack of evidence as evidence supporting his side.

    I think we should refer to using that particular type of illogic as "pulling a zhavric"

    Do all things with love.

  10. #22
    Observer
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    Quote Quote by: Zinkovich
    Quote Quote by: Amuse
    People- the brain is not a depository of information, it is only a processor of information and a poor one at that. The proscessing that takes place is also influenced by the ego which more times than not is false and highly positional with regards to self preservation and determined by scocietal position, status and soul evolution.

    There are three levels of consiousness- 1) consciousness = physical awareness which is corporeal, 2) subconsciousness = dream/ out of body state, the bridge between conscious and supraconscious, 3) supraconsciousness = connection to all that is/ the Self/God consciousness.

    These three levels, of course, are the result of pure speculation I take it?

    Please, post your proofs that NDE is a bridge to a higher conciousness and not a hallucination.

    A further quesiton: Have you ever done hallucingenic drugs? You'll be amazed at the sort of stuff you see, that is a result of purely your own ego and not real.
    Here are just a few sites that deal with consciousness and NED's. I tried to include sites that question the validity of NED's also.

    http://www.supraconsciousnessnetwork.org/

    http://www.innerlighttheory.com/paper.htm

    http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/...iverse/id/9797

    http://noosphere.princeton.edu/home_bottom3.html

    http://skepdic.com/nde.html

    http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

    http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

    Ultimately it's up to the individual to choose to believe or not but one thing is for sure- that day of discovery is inevetable and unavoidable.

    Question Authority

    God created man in His Image and likeness, and man returned the compliment and created God in his image and likeness...

  11. #23
    Observer
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    Quote Quote by: Zhavric
    Quote Quote by: Amuse
    3) supraconsciousness = connection to all that is/ the Self/God consciousness.
    Okay... prove it.
    http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

    I probably should have written:" 3) Supraconsciousness = Self/ All That Is" to make it more palatable for you. I use the term God because thats what most people identify with but I don't want to imply this supraconsciousness as having any resemblence to religious ideology. My take is that all of our consciousness together is that supraconsciousness that has created All That Is .

    Question Authority

    God created man in His Image and likeness, and man returned the compliment and created God in his image and likeness...

  12. #24
    BANNED Zhavric's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Captain Chaos
    Rainbow, Zhavric believes that materialist claims should be assumed true by default.
    Rainbow, Captain Chaos and Fonceai like putting words in my mouth, disputing arguments I've never made and arguing against what they want me to have said.

    Claims which are proven are true. Claims which are unproven are unknown. Claims which contradict existing proven claims are false until proven true. (they have a lot of trouble accepting that last bit...)

    They like to pretend that the physical world doesn't exist as it does and that farsical entities and other dimensions are as natural as rain.

    Clearly, they're very confused.

    I think we should refer to using that particular type of illogic (arguing against a mischaracterization of an argument rather than the actual argument) as a straw man fallacy.


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