Prove the Benefits of Libertarianism

[Osborn F Enready]

Captain Chaos said:
Osborn posted the above information in a different thread...

New Hampshire is quite wealthy, has very low poverty, and has excellent schools. They also have the lowest income tax - is this evidence to support the Libertarian viewpoint? Bear in mind that correlation does not mean causation - but still, it makes you think.

I say:
New Hampshire was voted as the State for the Free State Project because it is "already" very libertarian in many respects from individual rights, to economics, to basic fundamentals of local government.

New Hampshire is a great example of how just a small dose of libertarianism can work, just imagine if the state over the next few years became a more complete example of Libertarian example?

It is hard to find an example of Libertarian government, unless you take the United States from its founding until about 1850. Most of that time we were on a "bimetallic" economics system which is the system I most support from "previous models". Even then however, there were several examples where it was not a true "libertarian" styled government including slavery.

One of my biggest arguments is that once slavery was abolished for blacks, the corporatists enslaved us all, via the changes to the laws of incorporation, the creation of the Federal Reserve, the Income Tax applied to individuals, and the fraudelent 16th amendment which together amount to uncontrolled inflation of trade units, based on government intent.

[brien]

Osborn posted the above information in a different thread...

New Hampshire is quite wealthy, has very low poverty, and has excellent schools. They also have the lowest income tax - is this evidence to support the Libertarian viewpoint? Bear in mind that correlation does not mean causation - but still, it makes you think.

New Hampshire does not have an income tax at all.

[brien]

Osborn posted the above information in a different thread...

New Hampshire is quite wealthy, has very low poverty, and has excellent schools. They also have the lowest income tax - is this evidence to support the Libertarian viewpoint? Bear in mind that correlation does not mean causation - but still, it makes you think.

CC:

POI: NH doesn't have an income tax

Sorry for the double post. I originally misunderstood the meaning of your post.

[Captain Chaos]

Edited to remove an unnecessary reply.

[brien]

Should a neighborhood be allowed to dictate what sort of business they want in their neighborhood?

In other words, if I want to open a brothel in my home, should my neighbors have any say in the matter?

All prostitution should be legalized and be conducted in a business like atmosphere just as other business is conducted in your community.

[Captain Chaos]

So...

Does NH not have state income tax because they don't need it...

Or does the lack of state income tax cause NH to be wealthy?


How does NH support its government?

[Captain Chaos]

All prostitution should be legalized and be conducted in a business like atmosphere just as other business is conducted in your community.

That sounds good in principle...

But what if a neighborhood doesn't want a brothel next door?

[lsbskins1]

I know I tend to reduce things to the easiest, smart-ass, common denominator and it makes enemies. I'll risk it again. When it comes to defending/supporting/proving libritarian points and principles, that is no easier or harder than doing so for progressive or conservative principles. The issue for me is the basic bent of those who adhere to the philosophy. In my experience, those who expound libertarian ideals are kinda "smart" bullies. They intellectualize their desire to be able to do what they please, when they please and rationalize away the negitive aspects of their core desires to please themselves while ignoring the needs of others. It isn't "mean" to let someone else starve when you are only responsible for maintaining you and yours. It isn't "selfish" to make the other people in your neighborhood (who don't want a Hamburger Stand opperating in the middle of where they live and play with their children) suffer, when you are only upholding the principle that the government should not be able to "zone" anything.

When it comes down to brass tacks, most libertarians will say that it is more wrong to compel them to do something against their will than it is for them to impose their will on others. "Make me not build an airplane factory on the land I own. If I can muster the firepower to enforce my 'right' to do as I will with my property, then it is just tough shit for you." If you don't like it, move next to someone who thinks like you. If you can not move, I should not be made to suffer for your "weakness" or "lack of resources". They respect themselves, but not others, especially if they see the 'others' as weak or lacking in will power. That is why they worship Ayn Rand and The Fountainhead is viewed almost as a religious text. It just makes me a little sad. I mean, as I have said before, I can agree with some of the core ideals of the libertarian philosophy. The problem is that the adherents seem to lack a sense of proportion.

[brien]

So...

Does NH not have state income tax because they don't need it...

Or does the lack of state income tax cause NH to be wealthy?


How does NH support its government?

NH has very little government to support. The legislature only meets for a very short session and the legislators all go back home to their regular jobs.

The government is supported mainly by taxes on tourism and property taxes.

From a inforrmational link.

Economy

Agriculture in New Hampshire is hampered by the mountainous topography and by extensive areas of unfertile and stony soil, but farmers are helped by the cooperative marketing that has expanded since World War II. Their main sources of income are dairy products, greenhouse products, apples, cattle, and eggs.

Since the late 1800s manufacturing has been important in the state. The textile mills and factories producing leather goods (such as shoes and boots) that once lined the state's fast-moving rivers have given way to high-technology firms, many of them migrating from the Boston area and its higher tax rates. Electrical and other machinery, as well as fabricated metals and plastics, are also manufactured.

Lumbering has been important since the first sawmill was built on the Salmon Falls River in 1631. Most of the timber cut now is used in paper production. Although New Hampshire has long been known as the Granite State, its large deposits of the stone—used for building as early as 1623—are no longer extensively quarried, the use of steel and concrete in modern construction having greatly decreased the granite market. Mineral production, chiefly of sand, gravel, and stone, is today a minor factor in New Hampshire's economy.

Year-round tourism is now the state's leading industry. Many visitors come to enjoy the state's beaches, mountains, and lakes. The largest lake, Winnipesaukee, is dotted with 274 inhabitable islands, while along the Atlantic shore 18 mi (29 km) of curving beaches (many state-owned) attract vacationers. Of the rugged Isles of Shoals off the coast, three belong to New Hampshire. Originally fishing colonies, they are now used largely as summer residences.

In the winter skiers flock northward, and the state has responded to the increasing popularity of winter sports by greatly expanding its facilities. When the snows melt, skiers are replaced by hikers, rafters, and climbers. Folk crafts such as wood carving, weaving, and pottery making have been revived to meet the tourist market.

Government, Politics, and Higher Education

New Hampshire's constitution, adopted in 1784, is the second oldest in the country. New Hampshire is the only state in which amendments to the constitution must be proposed by convention; once every seven years a popular vote determines the necessity for constitutional revision. The state's executive branch is headed by a governor and five powerful administrative officers called councillors. The governor is elected for a two-year term and is traditionally limited to two successive terms. Perhaps the most unusual feature of New Hampshire politics is the size of its bicameral legislature (General Court), one of the largest representative bodies in the English-speaking world, with 24 senators and 400 representatives, all elected for two years. The state elects two senators and two representatives to the U.S. Congress and has four electoral votes.

The New Hampshire presidential primary is among the first to be held in election years and has often forecast national trends or influenced election outcomes. The primary is itself a major New Hampshire “industry.” Republicans have played the dominant role in New Hampshire politics since the Civil War, but Jeanne Shaheen, a Democrat, was elected governor in 1996 and reelected in 1998 and 2000. In 2002, Republican Craig Benson was elected to the office, but he was defeated by Democrat John Lynch in 2004.

Among the state's institutions of higher learning are the Univ. of New Hampshire, at Durham; Keene State Univ.; Dartmouth College, at Hanover; and Franklin Pierce College, at Rindge.


Demographics
Historical populations
Year Population
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1790 141,885
1800 183,858
1810 214,460
1820 244,161
1830 269,328
1840 284,574
1850 317,976
1860 326,073
1870 318,300
1880 346,991
1890 376,530
1900 411,588
1910 430,572
1920 443,083
1930 465,293
1940 491,524
1950 533,242
1960 606,921
1970 737,681
1980 920,610
1990 1,109,252
2000 1,235,786
As of 2005, New Hampshire has an estimated population of 1,309,940, which is an increase of 10,771, or 0.8%, from the prior year and an increase of 74,154, or 6.0%, since the year 2000. This includes a natural increase since the last census of 23,872 people (that is 75,060 births minus 51,188 deaths) and an increase due to net migration of 51,968 people into the state. Immigration from outside the United States resulted in a net increase of 11,107 people, and migration within the country produced a net increase of 40,861 people.

As of 2004, the population includes 64,000 foreign-born (4.9%).

More on the economy:

The current New Hampshire economy is largely driven by fiscal policy. The state has no sales tax, no personal income tax (the state does tax, at a 5 percent rate, income from dividends and interest) and advocates a frugal budget, thereby attracting commuters, light industry, specialty horticulture, retail customers and service firms from other jurisdictions with higher tax policies, notably from neighboring Massachusetts, Vermont and Maine (and to a lesser extent, New York). Efforts to diversify the state's general economy have been ongoing.

Additionally, New Hampshire's lack of a broad-based tax system (aside from the controversial state-wide property tax) has resulted in the state's local communities having some of the nation's highest property taxes. Overall, New Hampshire remains ranked 49th among states in combined average state and local tax burden. Nevertheless, ongoing efforts from unhappy homeowners for property tax relief continues. They have argued that Massachusetts (and other neighboring states) residents are shopping in their state tax free, and New Hampshire homeowners are paying them for the privilege.


Law and government
Main article: Government of New Hampshire
The governor of New Hampshire is John Lynch (Democrat). New Hampshire's two U.S. senators are Judd Gregg (Republican) and John E. Sununu (Republican).

New Hampshire has a bifurcated executive branch, consisting of the governor and a five-member Executive Council which votes on state contracts over $5,000 and "advises and consents" to the governor's nominations to major state positions such as department heads and all judgeships and pardon requests. New Hampshire does not have a Lieutenant Governor; the Senate President serves as "Acting Governor" whenever the governor is unable to perform the duties.

The New Hampshire General Court is a bicameral legislative body, consisting of the House of Representatives and the Senate. The House of Representative is the fourth-largest legislative body in the English speaking world with 400 members. Only the US House, the British House of Commons and the Indian Parliament are larger. Presumably because the position pays just $100 per year plus mileage, members are more likely to be retired. A survey published by the Associated Press in 2005 found that nearly half the members of the House are retired, with an average age close to 60.[2] The General Court meets in the New Hampshire State House.

The state's sole appellate court is the New Hampshire Supreme Court. The Superior Court is the court of general jurisdiction and the only court which provides for jury trials in civil or criminal cases. The other state courts are the Probate Court, District Court, and the Family Division.

The New Hampshire State Constitution is the supreme law of the state, followed by the New Hampshire Revised Statutes Annotated. The State Constitution is the nation's only state constitution which allows the right of revolution, and one of the few that does not mandate the provision of a public school system.

New Hampshire is also the only state with no mandatory seatbelt law for adults, and also has no motorcycle helmet law for adults nor mandatory vehicle insurance for automobiles. Although the state retains the death penalty for limited crimes, the last execution was conducted in 1939. New Hampshire is the only state that does not mandate public kindergarten, partly out of frugality and lack of funding, and partly out of belief in local control, a philosophy under which towns and cities, not the state, make as many decisions as possible. As of 2005, all but two dozen communities in the state provided public kindergarten.

New Hampshire is a "Dillon Rule" state, meaning that powers not specifically granted to municipalities are retained by the state government. Even so, there is within the state's legislature a strong sentiment favoring so-called "local control," particularly with regard to land use regulations. Traditionally, local government in New Hampshire is conducted by town meetings, but in 1995, municipalities were given the option of using an official ballot to decide local electoral and budgetary questions, as opposed to the more open and public town meeting.

New Hampshire is an Alcoholic Beverage Control state, and through the State Liquor Commission it takes in $100 million from the sale and distribution of liquor.[1] The state also leads the country in per capita sales of all forms of alcohol —– beer, wine and spirits. [2]


I sincerely hope this helps you understand a great state.

[brien]

That sounds good in principle...

But what if a neighborhood doesn't want a brothel next door?

You question is somewhat confusing. How can a brothel be next door to a neighborhood? I suppose it could be, but what difference does it make? What is your point?

Most business is conducted in a business setting and in commercial zones for business. Why would prostitution be any different? Why would a brothel want to be in a neighborhood? What benefit would it be to locate in a neighborhood where there would be obvious opposition and probably unwanted attention.

I think you are creating a unlikely scenario that really wouldn't happen in the real world. And if it did, the neighborhood could rally and drive the brothel out of business. In realpolitik brothels would not likely locate in neighborhoods.

[Captain Chaos]

Hmmm...

Is it fair to say that their economy is driven by tourism and by attracting industry through low taxes?

[brien]

I know I tend to reduce things to the easiest, smart-ass, common denominator and it makes enemies. I'll risk it again. When it comes to defending/supporting/proving libritarian points and principles, that is no easier or harder than doing so for progressive or conservative principles. The issue for me is the basic bent of those who adhere to the philosophy. In my experience, those who expound libertarian ideals are kinda "smart" bullies. They intellectualize their desire to be able to do what they please, when they please and rationalize away the negitive aspects of their core desires to please themselves while ignoring the needs of others. It isn't "mean" to let someone else starve when you are only responsible for maintaining you and yours. It isn't "selfish" to make the other people in your neighborhood (who don't want a Hamburger Stand opperating in the middle of where they live and play with their children) suffer, when you are only upholding the principle that the government should not be able to "zone" anything.

When it comes down to brass tacks, most libertarians will say that it is more wrong to compel them to do something against their will than it is for them to impose their will on others. "Make me not build an airplane factory on the land I own. If I can muster the firepower to enforce my 'right' to do as I will with my property, then it is just tough shit for you." If you don't like it, move next to someone who thinks like you. If you can not move, I should not be made to suffer for your "weakness" or "lack of resources". They respect themselves, but not others, especially if they see the 'others' as weak or lacking in will power. That is why they worship Ayn Rand and The Fountainhead is viewed almost as a religious text. It just makes me a little sad. I mean, as I have said before, I can agree with some of the core ideals of the libertarian philosophy. The problem is that the adherents seems to lack a sense of proportion.

Lsbskins, my old friend. You have raised some common misunderstandings when it comes to Libertarianism.

Libertarians want to be left alone to run their lives free from the ever expanding nanny state. We only ask for less government intrusion into our private lives. We ask the government to stay out of the bedroom. We ask the government to avoid defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. We ask the government to downsize and privatize.

"Smart Bullies" eh??? I disagree. We are concerned with the ever expanding government intrusion into your and my life. We wish not to bully anyone. But we damn well get angry when the government wants to define marriage as the Republicrats are seeking to do in Congress with their electioneering sloganism regarding a Marriage or Flag Burning Amendment. Perhaps you would agree with this BS, but I doubt it. We are advocating the politics of smaller and less intrusive government.

Libertarians do not ignore the needs of others. We merely want government out of the business of supporting people. We would privatize aid to dependent and indigent people. We rely upon private enterprise and not the government to accomplish these things. We don't blindly trust the government to meet the needs of society. And when the government does run programs, do, they do it badly.

We don't advocate "letting people starve." This is a gross misrepresentation of the LP. We have solutions for all of you concerns.

Here is your link to familiarize yourself with the LP.

http://www.lp.org/

From the Platform :

Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives, and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.


The rest of the link will walk you through policies. Please take some time to familiarize yourself with the LP.