Prove the Benefits of Libertarianism

[Osborn F Enready]

Great post Zynner, and I appreciate the avenue you have taken for clarification of some of those points that are very relevant to this topic.

I will be back again to answer Josh, later this afternoon most likely, in detail.

Thanks again Zynner, great post.

[Osborn F Enready]

You know, upon re-reading for the third time, I would say that Zynner fully answered my perspective in the sense that you either, go along with the concept of the original constitutional system, or you don't.

He has eloquently, and clearly defined the void of logic that Josh and I, as well as Tivo and I have breached many times.

Excellent observation, and unless questioned further I will have to draw a line here and say all questions have been intelligently, and completely coherantly answered to the full degree.

Kudos again Mr Zynner, a wonderful and well assembled post.

[Captain Chaos]

Earlier, Zynner also gave an excellent list of real-world examples that support Libertarianism.

[Osborn F Enready]

Captain Chaos said:
Earlier, Zynner also gave an excellent list of real-world examples that support Libertarianism.

I say:
I would agree to that also, but only based on what I know of those countries, as I am not a study of any except the U.S. currently.

On that point however, I am not concerned with whether or not enough people have tried it, or not. The logic of libertarianism is as basic, and root as it gets. That is its beauty. Its beautiful exactly because of its DESIGNED limitations, that nanny staters can't seem to understand, such as self reliance, self determination and self defense.

Liberty is not free, nor was it intended to be by nature if indeed nature is our god, or what we perceive as (a) God. Nature is cruel, hence the reason mammals instintively revolve between collective(family), individual(single adult).

We are all naturally by instinct, "collective" to some degree or our children would be birthed in the street and left to fend for themselves. We are all naturally driven to make our mark as individuals, whether by career, personal triumphs, or simply making "our own" collectives through cohabitation via marriage, insemination, arrangement or whatever they call it these days.


The biggest issue is two basic things.

FREE WILL (was any action, contract, agreement, obligation entered into of "free will"?)

INITIATION OF FORCE (who made the INITIAL act of force for any given situation, in entireity, and what was/is/will-be considered a "threat" and/or "force.)

Those two things alone in my mind, are what dominate the world, and preoccupy all mankind and anything else is a DIVERSION used to create wealth, power and or empire. There are those who fight for free will, and those who seek to take the decision of free will from others using the initiation of force. When dealing with the rights of the individual, those two fundamental laws are all that one need remember, at least, in my opinion.

Religion, star-signs, ideology, culture, national identity ALL come third to those in ANY situation, period, since they are all simply filters with which to confuse the "physical reality" we live in, to influence and/comfort those who are insecure of our/their/mankinds existence in an imperfect, unpredictable world, and usually to benefit the ideas/pockets/foundations of the founders at the expense of the followers.

Individualism is an ideology.
Collectivism is also an ideology.
Libertarianism is the closest infusion of self-evident truth between the two I have ever seen while taking BOTH sides into account realisticly.


A true Libertarian has no problem with a Socialist, as long as socialists aren't passing laws to FORCE Libertarians and others to BEND to the will of the socialists.

A true Libertarian has no problem with Communists, as long as communists aren't passing laws to FORCE Libertarians and others to BEND to the will of the communists.

A true Libertarian has no problem with Federalists, Anti-Federalists, Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Muslims, or any other flavor, color, creed or flavor of person you can name, UNLESS THEY ARE TRYING TO PASS LAWS THAT FORCE LIBERTARIANS AND OTHERS TO BEND TO THE WILL OF THEIR POLITCAL FLAVOR.

The funny thing.....all of the above, could exist peacefully with Libertarians in government, since they could all have their OWN COLLECTIVES outside of government that would empower them each to thier best extent, possibly, by private means.

Libertarians seek to oppress no person, no religion, no ideology. They simply wish for a system of checks and balances, that puts civil liberties, or our "Bill of INDIVIDUAL Rights" at the center of the legal system, in any situation, and a properly limited government to PREVENT the type of system we have had in the U.S. since 1913, give or take finite basics that reside in the Constitution.


So, why are so many so confused, mystified or bewildered by the libertarian platform? Because in todays world, it is like "getting something for nothing", while welfare, which is the true meaning of getting something for nothing is "considered normal".

Welcome to the New World Order. Please present your RFID, National ID Card, Social Security Card and at least one DNA sample to get your weekly food credit, drive-thru.

[Captain Chaos]

The logic of libertarianism is as basic, and root as it gets. That is its beauty.

I tellin' ya - logic is great, but it is not perfect. All logical arguments depend upon axioms - unprovable premises. No matter how smart you are, and how great you think your logic is, ya still need to test your ideas.

Think about how really good logic lead Newton to formulate his theories of physics. And dude, Newton is one of the geniuses of geniuses. His physics ruled. It was dead on. Except, well... it wasn't. It turns out that you cannot simple add velocities to predict a compound velocity. Einstein's relativity replaced much of Newtonian physics. Do you know how we knew that Newton was wrong - testing. Obersvations - errors in predicting the motions of planets.

Plus, testing provides proof. People might not listen to logic, but they will believe it if they see it. Show 'em how countries that score high on the index of economic freedom have faster economic growth - they will believe that. Show 'em New Hampshire's wealth - they will believe that.

[zynner]

I tellin' ya - logic is great, but it is not perfect. All logical arguments depend upon axioms - unprovable premises. No matter how smart you are, and how great you think your logic is, ya still need to test your ideas.

Absolutely, CC, and I would like to point out one other thing. Everybody uses what they think are axioms, whether they realize it or not. However, most people use invalid axioms (they are not real axioms) and think they are valid.

A valid axiom is a statement that is "not provable;" however, it is so obviously true that any attempt to show it is false will automatically validate that it is true. That is a real axiom.

And, yes, we test these ideas in the real world.

Check out my response to Phoenix_Fire in the thread, "How I Know God Does Not Exist."

~ zynner

[Osborn F Enready]

Josh, are you still out there sir?