Hydrogen Powered Cars

I recently caught a glimpse of a documentary on alternate fuel sources for automobiles. One segment showed a car pull up to a fuel station, hook up a nozel, much like a gas pump, fill a tank with hydrogen, and drive off. If this is working technology than I believe we have found the Holy Grail. An interviewee stated this technology should be commonplace in approx. fifteen years.
Does anyone out there know anything more about H2 powered cars?

[Stigmata66]

I know that the airport in Munich uses Hydrogen powered buses to transport people and such. So the technology is definately in use and can be put into cars but for some reason we aren't making much of an effort to do this.

[bmaestro]

hydrogen is really cool, because it basically runs on stripping electrons off of hydrogen atoms, then these ions combine with oxygen in the air to make water as the only byproduct.

The thing about hydrogen is that it takes energy to produce, and as anyone who's taken some physics knows, you can't get more energy out of something than you put energy into. In other words, the hydrogen still takes electricity to produce through a process called electrolysis. Of course you could produce this in the arizona desert with solar electricity, then ship the hydrogen to the cities where it's needed. Its just a very efficient and clean way to power cars, but it still takes power to produce.

[TylerDurden]

Hmmm actually... We replicated a Hydrogen engine in my Grade 12 chemistry class... well my friend and i created a blue print. The means of actually creating an engine like this were beyond us, but the fact that simple grade 12 students were able to create an engine as advanced as taht and as efficient as that was reason enough to prove how simpl the idea truly is. I believe it was ford that created a car a year ago that was like a flat bed with 4 wheels.. each wheel had its own simple hydrogen engine... the vehicle was fast, easily maneuvrable, amazingly cheap to run and very environmentally friendly.

Havent heard much talk of any hydrogen engines since though. If anyone has any articles they come across, I'd be more then happy to learn some mroe :)

[tman_ndsu08]

The big deal with H2 engines is that their byproduct is simply water.

But as far as efficiency...they're VERY expensive right now. Not worth it unless you're an environmental freak.

[bugsbunny04]

tman_ndsu08 is right, it would be cheaper to drive a GTO. And I mean a vintage GTO that drinks 1/6 of a gallon of about 100 octane (give or take a few octane depending on ignition timing) per mile, IFF you are driving like Mrs. Daisy is in the back seat. You could drive like a psycho, and still spend less on fuel.

But the emissions are cleaner than the ambient are in LA.

As for producing H2, it could become really easy, once we master fusion reactors. We could use a miniscule fraction the H2 production to provide an enless supply of fusion fuel, and the rest could power cars, or other fusion reactors, that could power more H2 production. Mabey that would make it cheaper. We would have an unlimited source of energy (fusion) which would also produce an unlimited supply of fuel for cars and itself, in addition to providing an unlimited source of power.

However, a containment failure in a fusion reactor with a core the size of my thumb would be uterlly catastrophic to anything within a couple hundred miles.

[tman_ndsu08]

If we mastered fusion reactors then we could simply power cars with fusion reactors.

Fusion is a pipe dream, however. The only way it works is if you can reach temperatures as hot as a star. This requires more energy than what you would get out. Pointless.

Fusion reactors are not even 100% efficient.

I'd be MUCH more interested in anti-matter/matter reactors.

[mlingley]

I'd rather see the vast wind and solar resources exploited.

You guys should check out this article about "whispering wheel" technology. The article points out that is was the favored engine in the hydrogen powered concept cars at the Tokyo Motor Show. Check it out http://www.rnw.nl/science/html/031215wheel.html

What I think is so incredible about this technology is that you could retrofit most of the cars on the road today relatively inexpensively. Since it gets rid of the transmition it seems like it would be an easy process.. just stick some new wheels on.. add a bunch of batteries and your good to go. You might need a bigger alternator, but you could leave in your old engine and it would just idle all the time, recharging the batteries.

[tman_ndsu08]

Wind and solar are AMAZINGLY pathetic in terms of area needed to generate a sufficient amount of power. One coal power plant would need to be replaced by 1000's of wind turbines and huge amounts of solar panals.

That whipsering wheel thing is interesting...but like all new things seems very expensive.

[Paavo]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
You guys should check out this article about "whispering wheel" technology. The article points out that is was the favored engine in the hydrogen powered concept cars at the Tokyo Motor Show. Check it out http://www.rnw.nl/science/html/031215wheel.html

What I think is so incredible about this technology is that you could retrofit most of the cars on the road today relatively inexpensively. Since it gets rid of the transmition it seems like it would be an easy process.. just stick some new wheels on.. add a bunch of batteries and your good to go. You might need a bigger alternator, but you could leave in your old engine and it would just idle all the time, recharging the batteries.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

That's awesome. I read the article, and I'm very much interested in finding out how the testing period turned out.
Even if the electricity-capacity would go negative for a moment, the diesel engine could rev up a bit to compensate the lack of current. *bookmarks* :)

[mlingley]

Sure it takes 1000s of windmills to produce the energy of 1 coal fired plant. The difference is wind is free, coal is not. Wind is clean, coal is not. In the end the wind would pay for the cost of the windmill.
Also the most efficient wind turbines in the world can produce quite a bit of electricity.. I think you'd be surprised to know one turbine is capable of producing electricity for around 3000 homes.
http://www.bwea.com/media/news/arc/ecotricity.html

I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger has got some good ideas. He want to creat a hydrogen highway in California by 2010. I guess the project calls for hydrogen filling station every 20 miles along California's major highways. I say BRAVO. Just what we need.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apu...rogen%20Highway

[Leopard]

ah yes, just what california needs right now, Arnold spending their money on something that has little demand (yet)...

here's a question: What is preventing a 'hydrogen highway' from being created privately right now?

Have you read about the business man in Phoenix with his hydrogen refit ideas? I will see if I can find that darned link, I know I bookmarked it - very interesting and seems economically sound in the near future...

[NotScientific]

Never heard of the H2 powered car but i did hear of the water powered car.

Anyway that's great. No more pollution i guess.

[Edge]

Ironically, the H2 technology is one of the key points in Bush's energy plan. They sticky points have been and continue to be fuel storage and availability. People forget that it wasn't all that long ago (50-60 years) that you could not get gasoline is many rural parts of the country.

People don't want to pay to put in hydrogen fueling stations until there are cars to fill, and people don't want cars until there are stations to fuel them...

An interesting use of the H2 source is the fuel cell. I read recently that several companies are developing "multi fuel" fuel cells, so that the vehicles could use H2 when it's available, and gas when it isn't.

[Leopard]

seen the hydrogen pellets? this solves alot of the storage problems and transportation problems... I really need to find these links... its very cool

[mlingley]

Hydrogen cars are too expensive right now for most people to go out and buy, so building a hydrogen highway right now would be impratical. The reason 2010 is a goal is because that is when hydrogen powered cars will be reasonably priced..

I have seen the hydrogen pellets.. here is an article..
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/...,212456,00.html

[tman_ndsu08]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
Sure it takes 1000s of windmills to produce the energy of 1 coal fired plant. The difference is wind is free, coal is not. Wind is clean, coal is not. In the end the wind would pay for the cost of the windmill.
Also the most efficient wind turbines in the world can produce quite a bit of electricity.. I think you'd be surprised to know one turbine is capable of producing electricity for around 3000 homes.
http://www.bwea.com/media/news/arc/ecotricity.html

I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger has got some good ideas. He want to creat a hydrogen highway in California by 2010. I guess the project calls for hydrogen filling station every 20 miles along California's major highways. I say BRAVO. Just what we need.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apu...rogen%20Highway<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Both of those are too expensive to impliment. "Pays for itself in the long run" is an easy phrase to say. Ponying up the dough to build them is the tough part.

[mlingley]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08)

Both of those are too expensive to impliment. "Pays for itself in the long run" is an easy phrase to say. Ponying up the dough to build them is the tough part.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

My grandparents own a small family farm in Minnesota. They built a windmills 4 years ago that cost around 30 thousand dollars. Guess what? It paid for itself in 3 and a half years. When I said "pays for itself in the long run" I guess I sounded to conservative.. gave you the wrong idea. Now they are making good money off of the windmill and they don't have to lift a finger.


"Today, according to the Danish electrical power companies, the energy cost to society (the social cost) per kilowatt-hour of electricity from wind is the same as for new coal-fired power stations fitted with smoke scrubbing equipment, i.e. around 0.04 USD per kWh for an average European site.
R&D studies in Europe and the US point to a further fall in energy costs from wind of some 10 to 20 per cent between now and the year 2005."

http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/econ/index.htm

Everybody seems so eager to discredit a viable, economical source of clean energy.. do you guys work for the oil companies or something? :)

Back to the topic of this thread.. renewable sources of energy should be what we use to produce the hydrogen for the cars of the future NOT nuclear or coal.

[tman_ndsu08]

Hey...i live in Fargo...i know how windy it gets around here.

But it's not THAT windy everywhere.

Also...there is a difference in building 4 small wind-mills for your home and building BIG windmills for millions of homes.

The HARDEST thing about solar and wind is that you have to store the extra energy because you can never guaranty when it will be windy or sunny. Battery technology is pathetic and far too expensive to store energy on a large scale.

I'm telling you..... matter/anti-matter reaction is what we need to put all our chips on.

100% efficient and the mass/energy ratio is ... well... E=mc^2.... c is 3(10^8) and M is in grams....you get the idea.

[bmaestro]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08,)
Hey...i live in Fargo...i know how windy it gets around here.

But it's not THAT windy everywhere.

Also...there is a difference in building 4 small wind-mills for your home and building BIG windmills for millions of homes.

The HARDEST thing about solar and wind is that you have to store the extra energy because you can never guaranty when it will be windy or sunny. Battery technology is pathetic and far too expensive to store energy on a large scale.

I'm telling you..... matter/anti-matter reaction is what we need to put all our chips on.

100% efficient and the mass/energy ratio is ... well... E=mc^2.... c is 3(10^8) and M is in grams....you get the idea.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Its definitely all about fusion power. I mean, if you get a bunch of seawater, strip the hydrogen and heat it up really hot, you get a bunch of energy and helium. thats pretty damn cool.

also about wind... If you use wind farms in fargo, or whereever else it's windy, you can produce hydrogen in fargo too. then you can ship the hydrogen to where its not so windy and there are tons of people driving cars. Hydrogen is a clean fuel, but it's not an energy source. People get this confused.

B