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damnrad · Mar 30, 2004, 05:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (shunyadragon,)
It has also been demonstrated that positive thinking has done the same thing as prayer. Prayer is form of positive thinking and you may be appealing to your own resources for healing and maybe divine intervention as well, but it may be hard to tell the difference.

Miracle and miraculous are followed by mirage in most dictionaries.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Once again, the issue with IP experiments is to eliminate any effects of positive, or for that matter negative, thinking. In a true IP experiment, as in any true experiment, double-blinding assures that the subject does not know whether or not an intervention is being carried out in his or her own case; and neither does anyone else with direct contact with the subject. The only 'positive thinking' is on the parts of those recruited to pray, and they are given only first names, not information that would allow them to identify the subjects, so that they cannot influence them in any way other than through the experimental intervention. Only if IP studies are carried out as such experiments can their findings be of use to science -- any positive results would not be attributable to currently-known natural processes. Note, however, that should a set of positive findings emerge, it does not establish that anything supernatural occurs, only that something occurs that science cannot currently explain. On the other hand, should a set of positive findings emerge, that in itself would be sufficient to rather shake up science. But no big deal: many findings have in the past rather shaken up science. All of this is conjectural, however, because despite several different IP experiments, no set of findings has emerged that supported pre-stated hypotheses. The handful of positive outcomes that have been claimed have, so far as I have seen, resulted from fishing through the data for results, rather than from tests of prespecified hypotheses. That does not invalidate the findings, it merely places them in the category of interesting results that need to be further investigated -- by specifying specific hypotheses and testing them in new experiments.

Mia · Mar 30, 2004, 05:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Fallen Angel,)
Sorry, but I don't think it is a placebo at all.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

How could it be when the patients didn't know they were being prayed for?

Mar 30, 2004, 05:24 pm	#81 (permalink) (top)
damnrad Igneous Magma Posts: 264	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (shunyadragon,) It has also been demonstrated that positive thinking has done the same thing as prayer. Prayer is form of positive thinking and you may be appealing to your own resources for healing and maybe divine intervention as well, but it may be hard to tell the difference. Miracle and miraculous are followed by mirage in most dictionaries.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Once again, the issue with IP experiments is to eliminate any effects of positive, or for that matter negative, thinking. In a true IP experiment, as in any true experiment, double-blinding assures that the subject does not know whether or not an intervention is being carried out in his or her own case; and neither does anyone else with direct contact with the subject. The only 'positive thinking' is on the parts of those recruited to pray, and they are given only first names, not information that would allow them to identify the subjects, so that they cannot influence them in any way other than through the experimental intervention. Only if IP studies are carried out as such experiments can their findings be of use to science -- any positive results would not be attributable to currently-known natural processes. Note, however, that should a set of positive findings emerge, it does not establish that anything supernatural occurs, only that something occurs that science cannot currently explain. On the other hand, should a set of positive findings emerge, that in itself would be sufficient to rather shake up science. But no big deal: many findings have in the past rather shaken up science. All of this is conjectural, however, because despite several different IP experiments, no set of findings has emerged that supported pre-stated hypotheses. The handful of positive outcomes that have been claimed have, so far as I have seen, resulted from fishing through the data for results, rather than from tests of prespecified hypotheses. That does not invalidate the findings, it merely places them in the category of interesting results that need to be further investigated -- by specifying specific hypotheses and testing them in new experiments.

Mar 30, 2004, 05:54 pm	#82 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Fallen Angel,) Sorry, but I don't think it is a placebo at all.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> How could it be when the patients didn't know they were being prayed for? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali