"scientists Say Prayers Work"

[Fallen Angel]

Prayer is an incredible power that is not a placebo but a real force of the human mind, I would say it is an untapped power by most and is linked ultimately to God.
Old pitures show a flame above peoples heads when they pray, as does the Chakra which depicts a whirling light above the crown of the head, the only chakra not touching the body but never the less connected to us.
I believe this is somekind of portal for connection to other minds and Gods.

[Cathy]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@09-23-2003 10:34 PM Prayer is an incredible power that is not a placebo but a real force of the human mind, I would say it is an untapped power by most and is linked ultimately to God. Old pitures show a flame above peoples heads when they pray, as does the Chakra which depicts a whirling light above the crown of the head, the only chakra not touching the body but never the less connected to us. I believe this is somekind of portal for connection to other minds and Gods.

Fallen Angel, I used the word placebo because IMO prayer is something that could be very powerful if you believe that it works and there is, as you say, some connection between you and a God (or Gods) via prayer.

This being analogous to a person who is given a tablet that is a placebo, and feels better due to their belief that it works, even though there is no scientific basis for the fact that the person feels better.

[Fallen Angel]

Sorry, but I don't think it is a placebo at all.

[Pooeypants]

I would like to see the full articles and scientific references/qualifications, also we'd need to do further testing on a larger scale to see the significance of this.

[damnrad]

Intercessory prayer is an area where some amount of research has been done, especially in health care. I don't have much time now, but I can return to it. An adequate study would be a true randomized trial: subjects randomly assigned to experimental and control groups, double-blinding (subjects don't know what group they are, those in contact with subjects don't know which group they are -- additionally, those who pray are given only first names, and no other info that could identify who and where the subjects are), and pre-planned hypotheses about differences in outcomes. The last is important, because there is a tendency to go 'hunting' through data to find something on which the prayer group did better (a tendency in all research, not just IP). I'm not aware of any study that has supported its hypotheses. 'Positive' reports in the literature have been based on 'hunting' for a positive dimension. A single positive report, even a single study, could not establish 'results,' but it would certainly show reason for further research. Here is one discussion: http://www.philosophers.co.uk/portal_article.php?id=7 .

[RebelWithanAK]

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtm...equestid=215019

[Waychel]

I believe that religion does work, but only because that religion is true to the person.

For example, if a person is feeling sick, lethargic, etc. but feels inspired by their religion, spirituality or the like enough to be in bright spirits and as energetic as they can be, their body will respond in as positive a way as it can. Emotional state and attitude has long been known to contribute to physical state (sometimes only a little, but sometimes a-lot).

I don't believe that prayer of any kind is a magical cure to cancer mind you, but if prayer means enough to a person emotionally and affects them enough to boost their spirits positively, I am of the opinion that it does help their condition physically to some extent.

[RebelWithanAK]

If that's the case (and I'm not saying it isn't) then what matter is it if the cause of one's strong feelings are founded in religion or elsewhere? And how does this affect anybody who is not emotionally attached to this ball-o'-feelings here?

[Waychel]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
If that's the case (and I'm not saying it isn't) then what matter is it if the cause of one's strong feelings are founded in religion or elsewhere? And how does this affect anybody who is not emotionally attached to this ball-o'-feelings here?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

It doesn't matter what the cause is, and I never said it could be confined only to religion/spirituality. :P I'm sure for many, philosophy among many other things are just as enlightening and fulfilling, triggering the same response.

I'm Atheist, so I can't vouch for it personally; but for some people, their emotional state does have an affect on their physical state to some degree. Religion brings many people hope, the feeling that they can go against any and all odds, so because they believe they will recover their body fights harder for them to recover.

"Mind over matter."

[Aeolus]

Religion is an obsolete institution which people use as a crutch. I believe that the direct action of the prayer induces a psychosomatic "cure." Though, I don't believe in a "higher power," I do believe prayer does help bring forth healing from our own bodies.

I might be reiterating some opinions that were stated but I was dying to chime in.

As Waychel did say, "Mind over Matter."

[Cathy]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
It doesn't matter what the cause is, and I never said it could be confined only to religion/spirituality. I'm sure for many, philosophy among many other things are just as enlightening and fulfilling, triggering the same response.

I'm Atheist, so I can't vouch for it personally; but for some people, their emotional state does have an affect on their physical state to some degree. Religion brings many people hope, the feeling that they can go against any and all odds, so because they believe they will recover their body fights harder for them to recover.

"Mind over matter."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Couldn't have said it better myself. A friend of mine (who I believe is not religious) has cancer and the prognosis was not good. When I saw him a week ago he was smiling and seemed in good spirits - a positive emotional state - that's got to be the best mind set for him to be in.

[mikemadman]

The human mind is a incredibly powerful thing. There is so much that we still dont know about it. The placebo effect is very well documented and is a proven fact in scientific study. Look at hypocondriacs (I know the spelling is terrible, I need a damn spellchecker), they are able to produce illnessess that they dont really have, but demonstrate all the symptoms. So if people can create a disease in there head that translates into physical illness I dont see why this could not be reversed.

You also have to look at religion. Religion is a extremely strong "emotion". Very religious people can almost get in a trance or frenzied state when they believe strong enough. You dont see this kind if faith or belief in something intangible except with religion. I think religion in most people is even more powerful then love, which is really saying something. It does not surprise me at all that these people are able to help their bodies heal in some way or another.

I also think luck and coincidence plays a factor to a certian extent.

I sometimes wish I had faith in something as strongly as most Americans do. It would be nice to beleive that some divine power could save me. I think there is certian level that the brain could help but I dont think it could cure something in-curable like Aids or Cancer. It could help in the remission of cancer though.

[G. Adams]

The reasons you don't see the kinds of ferver in things outside of religion is because anyone who displays such behavious would have an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

[Scribbler1]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Geoff332,)
I've always been a great believer in some level of psychosomatic healing. It doesn't require any mystical explanation: you body heals itself by generating chemical reactions (to knit bones, to kill diseases and so on). We know the brain influences some chemical reactions -- adrenline releases for example. It's relatively easy to believe that somehow the brain/mind influences how the body heals itself. I don't know enough about biochemistry or medicine to know anything about how complex it is for this to happen, but I can see that it's at least conceivable without reference to any spiritual force.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Do a web search on the organ in the brain called the Hypothalamus. It's involved in controlling the body's autonomic responses. Might shed a little light on this, although there is still room for discussion on whether belief (religious or otherwise) plays a major role in recovery.

[Samildanach]

With regard to other people praying for you. I've always speculated that we have some kind of wireless network circuit analogue in our brain somewhere. I believe that any circuit that can be implemented currently electrically can be translated to a biological equivalent.
It may be that the masses praying is perceived across the resulting network (primitive though that network may be) by your body as you praying for your defenses etc to activate. After all it doesnt matter who activates the channels so long as your body perceives someone does. although this also leads to the conclusion that the more people who pray for you, the more likely it is that your defensive biology will activate however this will not lead to a cumulative effect.

[joshinvade]

Of course any other theroy, no matter how insane they may be, as long as we don't have to accept the idea of God.

I must reply to these remarks. I'm new to this site, but I am involved in some live debate elswhere. Of course people are going to be better physically if they feel better emotionally. Your brain has all the powers, 99% of them we will never find out. But concluding from this that God has no power is a little harsh. I'm a Christian, but I have little affiliation with the church, I try hard to help in anyway I can. On this earth there will almost always be a reasonable explanation for everything. But existence itself is a block to most scientific laws. I'm going a little off the topic but you shouldn't say just because something happened and it happened because of this, that God didn't have anything to do with it.

[Samildanach]

Apply occams razor to god and see where you come out. Sorry but Im an atheist. God hasn't done anything for me lately.

I'm not going to preach to you, but your protesting about something which you have no idea of its origins or probably a tenth of what it is about. A scientist doesn't assume anything, they research it before they make a rational decision. I can see why you say such things, this "brave new world" has allowed for such freedom. But you better not forget about what this nation's foundation is, Christianity. If you read the bible you would know that God has done more for you than you would possibly know. In order for you to know of what I speak you should seriously consider reading a little bit of the bible.

[Samildanach]

Lets get a couple of facts straight.
1) I'm not protesting about anything.
2) You are right I don't have any idea of Gods origins (assuming it exists)
3) If I was to do research into god the only research I could do would be asking him to perform miracles going and jumping off a building and asking him to help me to fly. After I had splattered on the ground I would have to conclude he did not exist. that is scientific rationality. Proof based on experiment. Or I could go for the option where I throw half a dozen people off a roof and pray for half of them to fly. If half of them flew I could conclude God existed. Hell I'll be nice if even one of them flew I would concede your argument.
4) You imply I am scared of freedom? Freedom is the ability to do whatever you like without consequences and it doesnt have to have a purpose. Most people cannot seem to live without purpose or a reason for being. They need to be told why they are here. God provides that for most of them. Try living without a perceived purpose in life, that is a foundation for true strength because it encourages self reliance. I have read the bible and while it provides a lot of 'worthy' moral lessons that is about all I got out of it. Along with the threats if you step out of line of course.