Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

mlingley · Feb 21, 2004, 12:56 am

I though everyone might be interested in what the Australians are doing down under....

Want cheap, green electricity? The Australians have a simple answer. First, build a 20,000-acre greenhouse to trap and heat air. Then build a colossal tower 1 km (.62 miles) tall in the middle of it. The warm air from the greenhouse will rise through the tower as it would through a chimney, turning turbines and generating enough electricity to power 200,000 Australian homes. It may sound like science fiction, but the project is on track to get approved by the Australian government. If completed, the $800 million solar tower will be the tallest man-made structure in the world.

http://www.wentworth.nsw.gov.au/solartower/default.asp

Here is another website somebody might be interested in.. it shows you how to make biodiesel from used vegetable oil. I've been making biodiesel in my basement for a couple months now and I'm driving around in my volkswagen golf for under 60 cents a gallon.

I've heard gas could go up to 3 bucks a gallon in the U.S. this summer.. and I certainly don't want to be spending that much to get around.

http://www.schnews.org.uk/diyguide/...kebiodiesel.htm :rolleyes:

RebelWithanAK · Feb 21, 2004, 01:08 am

Yeah, too bad you ninnies are addicted to the car.

Is it just me, or is that Australian idea one massive waste of space?

John · Feb 21, 2004, 01:20 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Yeah, too bad you ninnies are addicted to the car.

Is it just me, or is that Australian idea one massive waste of space?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Not when Australia has hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of uninhabitable desert. There is plenty of land that can not be used to anything, you can't live there, you can't grow crops there and you can't have livestock there. This idea looks perfect for those types of areas.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 21, 2004, 07:40 am

It costs £0.78 per litre of petrol in UK, that works out at $1.47 USD per litre. Now beat that for rip off price.

bmaestro · Feb 21, 2004, 02:23 pm

someone is subsidizing the crap out of that. its about 1.70 in st. paul, and someone (our government) is subsidizing the crap out of this.

b

mlingley · Feb 21, 2004, 02:46 pm

You guys are getting raped over there in Europe as far as petrol is concerned.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 21, 2004, 04:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
You guys are getting raped over there in Europe as far as petrol is concerned.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Oh you think?... :rolleyes:

But then it does mean we don't we can't afford to own SUVs or other fuel inefficient cars.

mlingley · Feb 21, 2004, 07:21 pm

Does anybody know why gas is so expensive in Europe? It seems like you guys should be able to get your crude oil for the same price as the U.S. What causes these big differences in prices?

**Pooeypants** · Feb 22, 2004, 07:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
Does anybody know why gas is so expensive in Europe? It seems like you guys should be able to get your crude oil for the same price as the U.S. What causes these big differences in prices?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Huge taxation, I think about 90% of the fuel cost is tax.
But like I said, it's forced us to use fuel efficient cars and for each household to have fewer cars which in the long run, is good for the environment. Do the US still sell leaded petrol?

RebelWithanAK · Feb 22, 2004, 11:37 am

no, unleaded, but the US government heavily subsidizes gasoline here, just as it heavily subsidizes highway maintenance and housing loans so people can buy cars. What it means is that when the bottom falls out, we'll have no public transit to speak of, and very long lines at the few open gas stations there are.

Feb 22, 2004, 12:50 pm

^true. Ever notice how the sidewalks suck too? I couldn't walk anywhere far if I wanted to anymore.

Our car culture is rather annoying, but it works here for now. What scares me is that countries like India, and China are starting to copy us, and that means pollution.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 22, 2004, 12:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,)
^true. Ever notice how the sidewalks suck too? I couldn't walk anywhere far if I wanted to anymore.

Our car culture is rather annoying, but it works here for now. What scares me is that countries like India, and China are starting to copy us, and that means pollution.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
India and China represent what? Over a third of the world's population together (1 billion citizens each at last count minimum)...but what can we do?

Feb 22, 2004, 01:07 pm

Simple...we can encourage the production of cars that use alternatives to gasoline. We still control the demand end of the spectrum in this regard (The US/Europe), so if most of the gars used __insert fuel alternative here__ the big countries wouldn't have gasoline powered cars to buy.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 22, 2004, 01:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,)
Simple...we can encourage the production of cars that use alternatives to gasoline. We still control the demand end of the spectrum in this regard (The US/Europe), so if most of the gars used __insert fuel alternative here__ the big countries wouldn't have gasoline powered cars to buy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Are you saying India and China can't produce their own? Cars?

Feb 22, 2004, 01:15 pm

Not can't, aren't. The largest car makers are Japanese and American.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 22, 2004, 01:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,)
Not can't, aren't. The largest car makers are Japanese and American.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
But they can just as easily switch to self manufactured cars, especially when the more developed world's produce would cost more not to mention they'll have to be imported. I see what you're getting at but your point depends on whether they'll build their own vehicles or not. I doubt they'll stay that dependent on imports.

mlingley · Feb 24, 2004, 01:01 am

http://www.rnw.nl/science/html/031215wheel.html

Does anyone know why we don't actually use technology like this???

shanartisan · Feb 25, 2004, 03:27 am

Now that is a DAMNED GOOD IDEA!!

It looks like the inventors are going about it the right way. It's small, efficient, and -- most important -- can be put in existing vehicles, or alternatively, could be tooled into existing factories at minimal cost. All those facts are going to be very interesting to companies looking to get into the clean energy market. As the article says, "At the recent Tokyo Motor Show, it was the engine of choice in many of the futuristic hydrogen-powered concept cars." That's where you would want to introduce something like this.

Reasons it might not be implemented, as far as I can see, might include

a) even though it's relatively cheap to integrate into existing vehicles & infrastructure, there would still be a massive cost involved; the fuel savings and PR value would have to be significant in order to make it attractive to automakers

b) it would have to meet certain performance criteria before it would go into the average family car; witness the practical problems (power related) with the electric motor before it was married with gas in the new hybrid cars. Also, braking systems and steering systems would need modification

c) A thorough assessment of profit potential would need to be done before it had a chance of being accepted, due to the risk associated with the introduction of any new technology, and that entails much research and time

d) tons of things I probably haven't thought of, whether they be due to industry kinks or garden variety human stupidity

However -- the larger companies have the time and manpower for this. It depends on the potential it's showing at the trade shows, and how aggressively it's marketed by the owners of the design.

This technology could also address the problem of pollution in undeveloped countries, but it would take a while after widespread adoption in the US before it trickled down to the average Indian factory...a LONG while, unless it's actively promoted.

mlingley · Mar 5, 2004, 10:30 pm

http://www.nesea.org/renewables/biopower.html
BIOMASS
Another promising source of clean and renewable energy... Pretty much anything organic can be used for electricity. I'm right in the heartland of America.. a big source would be agricultural waste.. manure, corn stalk, switchgrass, ect.. Big cities could have plants producing energy off of human waste alone..

mlingley · Mar 7, 2004, 12:44 am

I found this quote by Thomas Edison interesting.. thought I might share it here.

"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that." -- Thomas Edison

I've been searching for info on parabolic solar collectors. If you combine a bunch of mirrors, a parabolic curved mirror, and a sterling engine you can get quite a bit of energy. Supposedly parabolic solar collectors combined with sterling engines can produce electricity at up to 30% effecientcy. That blows solar panels out of the water.

Feb 21, 2004, 01:08 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Yeah, too bad you ninnies are addicted to the car. Is it just me, or is that Australian idea one massive waste of space? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 21, 2004, 01:20 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
John Molten Ash Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 118	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Yeah, too bad you ninnies are addicted to the car. Is it just me, or is that Australian idea one massive waste of space?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Not when Australia has hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of uninhabitable desert. There is plenty of land that can not be used to anything, you can't live there, you can't grow crops there and you can't have livestock there. This idea looks perfect for those types of areas. Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Feb 21, 2004, 07:40 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	It costs £0.78 per litre of petrol in UK, that works out at $1.47 USD per litre. Now beat that for rip off price. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 21, 2004, 04:05 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) You guys are getting raped over there in Europe as far as petrol is concerned.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh you think?... :rolleyes: But then it does mean we don't we can't afford to own SUVs or other fuel inefficient cars. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 22, 2004, 07:10 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) Does anybody know why gas is so expensive in Europe? It seems like you guys should be able to get your crude oil for the same price as the U.S. What causes these big differences in prices?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Huge taxation, I think about 90% of the fuel cost is tax. But like I said, it's forced us to use fuel efficient cars and for each household to have fewer cars which in the long run, is good for the environment. Do the US still sell leaded petrol? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 21, 2004, 12:56 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I though everyone might be interested in what the Australians are doing down under.... Want cheap, green electricity? The Australians have a simple answer. First, build a 20,000-acre greenhouse to trap and heat air. Then build a colossal tower 1 km (.62 miles) tall in the middle of it. The warm air from the greenhouse will rise through the tower as it would through a chimney, turning turbines and generating enough electricity to power 200,000 Australian homes. It may sound like science fiction, but the project is on track to get approved by the Australian government. If completed, the $800 million solar tower will be the tallest man-made structure in the world. http://www.wentworth.nsw.gov.au/solartower/default.asp Here is another website somebody might be interested in.. it shows you how to make biodiesel from used vegetable oil. I've been making biodiesel in my basement for a couple months now and I'm driving around in my volkswagen golf for under 60 cents a gallon. I've heard gas could go up to 3 bucks a gallon in the U.S. this summer.. and I certainly don't want to be spending that much to get around. http://www.schnews.org.uk/diyguide/...kebiodiesel.htm :rolleyes:

Feb 21, 2004, 02:23 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
bmaestro Molten Ash Posts: 61	someone is subsidizing the crap out of that. its about 1.70 in st. paul, and someone (our government) is subsidizing the crap out of this. b

Feb 21, 2004, 02:46 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	You guys are getting raped over there in Europe as far as petrol is concerned.

Feb 21, 2004, 07:21 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	Does anybody know why gas is so expensive in Europe? It seems like you guys should be able to get your crude oil for the same price as the U.S. What causes these big differences in prices?

Feb 22, 2004, 11:37 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	no, unleaded, but the US government heavily subsidizes gasoline here, just as it heavily subsidizes highway maintenance and housing loans so people can buy cars. What it means is that when the bottom falls out, we'll have no public transit to speak of, and very long lines at the few open gas stations there are. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 22, 2004, 12:50 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
dotComa Guest Posts: n/a	^true. Ever notice how the sidewalks suck too? I couldn't walk anywhere far if I wanted to anymore. Our car culture is rather annoying, but it works here for now. What scares me is that countries like India, and China are starting to copy us, and that means pollution.

Feb 22, 2004, 12:56 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,) ^true. Ever notice how the sidewalks suck too? I couldn't walk anywhere far if I wanted to anymore. Our car culture is rather annoying, but it works here for now. What scares me is that countries like India, and China are starting to copy us, and that means pollution.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> India and China represent what? Over a third of the world's population together (1 billion citizens each at last count minimum)...but what can we do? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 22, 2004, 01:07 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
dotComa Guest Posts: n/a	Simple...we can encourage the production of cars that use alternatives to gasoline. We still control the demand end of the spectrum in this regard (The US/Europe), so if most of the gars used __insert fuel alternative here__ the big countries wouldn't have gasoline powered cars to buy.

Feb 22, 2004, 01:12 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,) Simple...we can encourage the production of cars that use alternatives to gasoline. We still control the demand end of the spectrum in this regard (The US/Europe), so if most of the gars used __insert fuel alternative here__ the big countries wouldn't have gasoline powered cars to buy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Are you saying India and China can't produce their own? Cars? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 22, 2004, 01:15 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
dotComa Guest Posts: n/a	Not can't, aren't. The largest car makers are Japanese and American.

Feb 22, 2004, 01:18 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,) Not can't, aren't. The largest car makers are Japanese and American.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> But they can just as easily switch to self manufactured cars, especially when the more developed world's produce would cost more not to mention they'll have to be imported. I see what you're getting at but your point depends on whether they'll build their own vehicles or not. I doubt they'll stay that dependent on imports. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 24, 2004, 01:01 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	http://www.rnw.nl/science/html/031215wheel.html Does anyone know why we don't actually use technology like this???

Feb 25, 2004, 03:27 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
shanartisan Sedimentary Rock Location: the mohave desert Posts: 20	Now that is a DAMNED GOOD IDEA!! It looks like the inventors are going about it the right way. It's small, efficient, and -- most important -- can be put in existing vehicles, or alternatively, could be tooled into existing factories at minimal cost. All those facts are going to be very interesting to companies looking to get into the clean energy market. As the article says, "At the recent Tokyo Motor Show, it was the engine of choice in many of the futuristic hydrogen-powered concept cars." That's where you would want to introduce something like this. Reasons it might not be implemented, as far as I can see, might include a) even though it's relatively cheap to integrate into existing vehicles & infrastructure, there would still be a massive cost involved; the fuel savings and PR value would have to be significant in order to make it attractive to automakers b) it would have to meet certain performance criteria before it would go into the average family car; witness the practical problems (power related) with the electric motor before it was married with gas in the new hybrid cars. Also, braking systems and steering systems would need modification c) A thorough assessment of profit potential would need to be done before it had a chance of being accepted, due to the risk associated with the introduction of any new technology, and that entails much research and time d) tons of things I probably haven't thought of, whether they be due to industry kinks or garden variety human stupidity However -- the larger companies have the time and manpower for this. It depends on the potential it's showing at the trade shows, and how aggressively it's marketed by the owners of the design. This technology could also address the problem of pollution in undeveloped countries, but it would take a while after widespread adoption in the US before it trickled down to the average Indian factory...a LONG while, unless it's actively promoted. ~Thanks, but I'll do it myself~

Mar 5, 2004, 10:30 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	http://www.nesea.org/renewables/biopower.html BIOMASS Another promising source of clean and renewable energy... Pretty much anything organic can be used for electricity. I'm right in the heartland of America.. a big source would be agricultural waste.. manure, corn stalk, switchgrass, ect.. Big cities could have plants producing energy off of human waste alone..

Mar 7, 2004, 12:44 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I found this quote by Thomas Edison interesting.. thought I might share it here. "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that." -- Thomas Edison I've been searching for info on parabolic solar collectors. If you combine a bunch of mirrors, a parabolic curved mirror, and a sterling engine you can get quite a bit of energy. Supposedly parabolic solar collectors combined with sterling engines can produce electricity at up to 30% effecientcy. That blows solar panels out of the water.