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Dadoo · Jul 29, 2005, 03:10 pm

As a sperm and an ovum are both living cells, life does not begin with their combining.

As all beings sprang forth from established living combinants, life began where ever the first cell alighted. Nothing begins more than once.

We cling to notions of self and individuality.
Individuality? As individual as any two skin cells on your hand, we are.

"When does life begin?"
-I posit this is an illogical question based upon flawed assumptions, and therefore, has no answer.
Anyone care to illuminate?

Dadu

Dirty Name · Jul 30, 2005, 07:44 am

I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

Lilith · Jul 30, 2005, 09:56 am

Before the sperm fertilizes the egg, the egg is only half alive, but when the sperm joins it, then it's fully alive.

**Pooeypants** · Jul 30, 2005, 11:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: Lilith

Before the sperm fertilizes the egg, the egg is only half alive, but when the sperm joins it, then it's fully alive.

I was always told that something only be dead or alive, no inbetween. Can you show otherwise?

einned · Jul 30, 2005, 02:23 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Lilith

Before the sperm fertilizes the egg, the egg is only half alive, but when the sperm joins it, then it's fully alive.

half alive, well that depends in which perspect you see the egg or sperm. If you already are comparing with a human, then yeah the half the genomes of most of us, but the sperm and egg in itself are very much alive.

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 30, 2005, 02:27 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Pooeypants

I was always told that something only be dead or alive, no inbetween. Can you show otherwise?

That depends on your definitions for dead or alive.

Prometheus · Jul 30, 2005, 11:01 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Dirty Name

I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

Is trying to be moral a negative thing?

Starboy · Jul 31, 2005, 11:12 am

Quote:

Quote by: Dadoo

"When does life begin?"
-I posit this is an illogical question based upon flawed assumptions, and therefore, has no answer.
Anyone care to illuminate?

I agree the question in the context it is asked is flawed. But it is also deceptive. The intent is to have the questioned conflaite the beginning of the life of a human being with the beginning of life itself and then present the question in a way that presumes that somehow at conception life just appeared from nowhere. It is illogical. It is willfuly ignorant and deliberately misinforming. But it is not presented as the beginning of any kind of honest debate but to create a false set of presumptions that beg a particular conclusion. Demagoguery at its finest.

Starboy

carriew · Jul 31, 2005, 01:31 pm

egg and sperm are living but they are not actually alive... they dont eat or reproduce themselves into more sperm. it does its job fertilizes and egg or dies... same with an egg it gets released from your ovary and it is either fertilized or it dies with 12-24 hours... they dont do anything it takes to be alive untill they become a new human being with 46 chromosomes then it starts a new alive life of its own instead of dying and decaying to nothingness....

Sonart · Jul 31, 2005, 01:55 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Dirty Name

I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

Or perhaps they're simply demonstrating the error of people imposing their black and white definitions of morality on a world composed of a lot of scientific grey areas.

.

Starboy · Jul 31, 2005, 02:03 pm

Quote:

Quote by: carriew

egg and sperm are living but they are not actually alive... they dont eat or reproduce themselves into more sperm. it does its job fertilizes and egg or dies... same with an egg it gets released from your ovary and it is either fertilized or it dies with 12-24 hours... they dont do anything it takes to be alive untill they become a new human being with 46 chromosomes then it starts a new alive life of its own instead of dying and decaying to nothingness....

So an egg and a sperm are not alive? So because they can't reproduce they are not alive? So if a human being were born sterile then they would not be alive either? It would be fine to kill them since they can't reproduce so they are not alive?

Starboy

Mr.Vicchio · Jul 31, 2005, 02:31 pm

Thier alive, they just aren't humans.

The cells in your skin is alive, but not alive in the way the poster mentioned.

carriew · Jul 31, 2005, 02:41 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

So an egg and a sperm are not alive? So because they can't reproduce they are not alive? So if a human being were born sterile then they would not be alive either? It would be fine to kill them since they can't reproduce so they are not alive?

Starboy

no I dont believe people are created sterile(other factors like hormones play into that) and I did not say that u did. I dont think its ok to exterminate human beings sterile or not.

I feel bad for ants and insects I have to kill in my home. and i know they are not humans.

and they are not alive by more than just that one crietera. they dont eat. they dont metabolize anything. the dont grow. do I have to put up the list????

Starboy · Jul 31, 2005, 03:50 pm

carriew, I do not comprehend how you think. It doesn't matter how they came to be sterile. They can't reproduce. They can no more reproduce than a lone egg or a lone sperm. Yet you do not seem to mind killing sperm and as far as I know you don't care about killing eggs.

Starboy

Lilith · Jul 31, 2005, 04:12 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Pooeypants

I was always told that something only be dead or alive, no inbetween. Can you show otherwise?

I was being silly. But who knows, there might be an inbetween, just don't ask me where....

carriew · Jul 31, 2005, 08:14 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

carriew, I do not comprehend how you think. It doesn't matter how they came to be sterile. They can't reproduce. They can no more reproduce than a lone egg or a lone sperm. Yet you do not seem to mind killing sperm and as far as I know you don't care about killing eggs.

Starboy

if they arent fertilized they arent a human being. I care about killing human beings.

ps.. lol I thought we figured out that you dont understand me I am a woman what do you want! lol!!!

Dadoo · Aug 3, 2005, 01:42 pm

Star Boy-
Not intended to confuse, but I am seriously contemplating what this means to me, even if only in a completely rhetorical sense.

The sperm and egg do consume sugars in order to form and utilize mitochondrial ATP; cellular energy.
They also reproduce, asexually, as it were (ironical, 'eh)-- at least, sperm do.

And to say they aren't "human"?

Is your finger "human".
Aye, all cells "human" are Human.

As far as morality.. all sides must be considered.
However, I don't care one way or the other about abortion. Non-sequitor.
I did not mention morality, and we should keep this topic , on -topic.

I am baffled by our terminologies. If a belief or viewpoint can swallowed up by an encompassing concept or phenomenon, then the larger picture begs to be confronted, apprehended and applied, if possible.

So, when does "life" begin?
Many definitions of what life is, I see.
Is this possible, as we live together in a shared universe experience?

StarBoy- you actually are working the same bit of logic as I. It is pertinent, to minds that can grasp the implications, I bet.

Starboy · Aug 3, 2005, 01:53 pm

Dadoo, the situation is complex to say the least. There are several kinds of life present and there are several kinds of reproduction going on. There is the life that was always alive that goes back at least 3.5 billion years to the earliest life on the planet. Certainly the egg and sperm are alive. And certainly they reproduce when they combine. Certainly a human finger is human life. And there is also this thing we call a human being which is also a different kind of life. As you pointed out, the question, 'When does life begin?' presumes an over simplistic idea of life itself. It is either a nonsense question or it is a question that has no answer and thus everyone gets to make up their own answer and that answer is just as good as anyone else’s answer.

Starboy

Hostile55 · Aug 4, 2005, 11:33 am

I think life is a fascinating thing. What I like most about life on this planet is that when we (humans) eventually kill each other off, life will still go on. FANTASTIC. Human life isn't anything special. People dye all the time. Does it make a difference? Not really. Quite frankly I think there are just far to many people on this planet for comfort and abortion is a great thing. If a 13 year old were to get pregnant, would we rather have an amorphous clump of stem cells destroyed, or have a child raise a child? Certainly I love and cherish children and that is my main reason for not wanting any of my own. I would not want to bring another inoccent life into this god forsaken world. It breaks my heart every day to see children mistreated by the very people who are supposed to love and nuture them. Neglect is one of the most widespread forms of abuse in western society, and you only have to look around to see the symptoms of it; antisocial behaviour, youth crimes, drug abuse, apathy, depression, etc. Some see abortion as murder. I see it as mercy killing.

**Jack** · Aug 4, 2005, 11:41 am

Woohoo!
I've avioded this topic, not sure how to word my opinion. Hostile55 just did it for me.
Thank you...and I agree 100%.
Once we get past thinking there's anything special or devine about humans, we can be much more realistic in our approach to unwanted pregnancies and population control.

Jul 29, 2005, 03:10 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 299	Conception or Preception? As a sperm and an ovum are both living cells, life does not begin with their combining. As all beings sprang forth from established living combinants, life began where ever the first cell alighted. Nothing begins more than once. We cling to notions of self and individuality. Individuality? As individual as any two skin cells on your hand, we are. "When does life begin?" -I posit this is an illogical question based upon flawed assumptions, and therefore, has no answer. Anyone care to illuminate? Dadu Leave both pain & pleasures behind you; Discover the treasures buried inside you!

Jul 30, 2005, 07:44 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Dirty Name The Truth Posts: 1,723	I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral. The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/socie...tml#post348891

Jul 30, 2005, 09:56 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Lilith It's my life Location: Texas Posts: 532	Before the sperm fertilizes the egg, the egg is only half alive, but when the sperm joins it, then it's fully alive. If you want the country to go to hell in a handbasket, then vote for the one who can drive you there blindfolded.

Jul 31, 2005, 02:31 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Thier alive, they just aren't humans. The cells in your skin is alive, but not alive in the way the poster mentioned. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Aug 3, 2005, 01:42 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 299	Star Boy- Not intended to confuse, but I am seriously contemplating what this means to me, even if only in a completely rhetorical sense. The sperm and egg do consume sugars in order to form and utilize mitochondrial ATP; cellular energy. They also reproduce, asexually, as it were (ironical, 'eh)-- at least, sperm do. And to say they aren't "human"? Is your finger "human". Aye, all cells "human" are Human. As far as morality.. all sides must be considered. However, I don't care one way or the other about abortion. Non-sequitor. I did not mention morality, and we should keep this topic , on -topic. I am baffled by our terminologies. If a belief or viewpoint can swallowed up by an encompassing concept or phenomenon, then the larger picture begs to be confronted, apprehended and applied, if possible. So, when does "life" begin? Many definitions of what life is, I see. Is this possible, as we live together in a shared universe experience? StarBoy- you actually are working the same bit of logic as I. It is pertinent, to minds that can grasp the implications, I bet. Leave both pain & pleasures behind you; Discover the treasures buried inside you!

Jul 31, 2005, 01:31 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
carriew Igneous Magma Location: Faulkville Ga USA Posts: 334	egg and sperm are living but they are not actually alive... they dont eat or reproduce themselves into more sperm. it does its job fertilizes and egg or dies... same with an egg it gets released from your ovary and it is either fertilized or it dies with 12-24 hours... they dont do anything it takes to be alive untill they become a new human being with 46 chromosomes then it starts a new alive life of its own instead of dying and decaying to nothingness....

Jul 31, 2005, 03:50 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	carriew, I do not comprehend how you think. It doesn't matter how they came to be sterile. They can't reproduce. They can no more reproduce than a lone egg or a lone sperm. Yet you do not seem to mind killing sperm and as far as I know you don't care about killing eggs. Starboy

Aug 3, 2005, 01:53 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	Dadoo, the situation is complex to say the least. There are several kinds of life present and there are several kinds of reproduction going on. There is the life that was always alive that goes back at least 3.5 billion years to the earliest life on the planet. Certainly the egg and sperm are alive. And certainly they reproduce when they combine. Certainly a human finger is human life. And there is also this thing we call a human being which is also a different kind of life. As you pointed out, the question, 'When does life begin?' presumes an over simplistic idea of life itself. It is either a nonsense question or it is a question that has no answer and thus everyone gets to make up their own answer and that answer is just as good as anyone else’s answer. Starboy

Aug 4, 2005, 11:33 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Hostile55 Get the f* down! Posts**: 91	I think life is a fascinating thing. What I like most about life on this planet is that when we (humans) eventually kill each other off, life will still go on. FANTASTIC. Human life isn't anything special. People dye all the time. Does it make a difference? Not really. Quite frankly I think there are just far to many people on this planet for comfort and abortion is a great thing. If a 13 year old were to get pregnant, would we rather have an amorphous clump of stem cells destroyed, or have a child raise a child? Certainly I love and cherish children and that is my main reason for not wanting any of my own. I would not want to bring another inoccent life into this god forsaken world. It breaks my heart every day to see children mistreated by the very people who are supposed to love and nuture them. Neglect is one of the most widespread forms of abuse in western society, and you only have to look around to see the symptoms of it; antisocial behaviour, youth crimes, drug abuse, apathy, depression, etc. Some see abortion as murder. I see it as mercy killing.

Aug 4, 2005, 11:41 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 12,817	Woohoo! I've avioded this topic, not sure how to word my opinion. Hostile55 just did it for me. Thank you...and I agree 100%. Once we get past thinking there's anything special or devine about humans, we can be much more realistic in our approach to unwanted pregnancies and population control. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Tumblr Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)