Conception or Preception?

[Dadoo]

Thank you Sonart, that is precisely my point.
Said outright, it would glaze and fall.
All sages learn through analogy.

Human Life.
I'm sorry people, but a sperm is a HUMAN CELL. Could you replace a human sperm and a dog's and get the same result????
C'mon, duds pick up the pace in the rear.
The world is round!

Human sperm and ovum are indoubtedbly alive, consuming ATP via glucose and asexually reproducing (sperm).
Hmm, dead or alive?
In between?
Someone has Hoodwinked, bamboozled and lied to our children in order to push an agenda.

I am not concerned with morality. Trust me, I have NO morals. NONE.
Having survived a deadly cancer this year makes me even more Crowley-esque than ever.

The Human is a Union of cells under an agreement to work symbiotically with each other in systems,
to what end I cannot say. It seems more likely a sinister plot with nefarious objectives.
As we poison our world and jeopardize all life on the planet, we should become a bit more black and white in our logic, and less grey about our magic.

Although you cannot tell me without base opinion shining forth, when life truly begins...

You all know that The Humans will Kill all Life.

At least we know when it ends.

Humans one, Life zero

Grinning and spinning right here with you,
Dadooooooooo

[northtexan]

Quote by: Dirty Name I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

I love all of the moral nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be philosophical.

Quote by: Lilith Before the sperm fertilizes the egg, the egg is only half alive, but when the sperm joins it, then it's fully alive.

That might work for the sperm, which has no mitochondria, so no ability to produce new energy; but it doesn't for the egg, which does have mitochondria.

So, the ladies are able to amuse themselves, but the guys don't have any fun until they get to the ladies.

Quote by: carriew egg and sperm are living but they are not actually alive... they dont eat or reproduce themselves into more sperm. it does its job fertilizes and egg or dies... same with an egg it gets released from your ovary and it is either fertilized or it dies with 12-24 hours... they dont do anything it takes to be alive untill they become a new human being with 46 chromosomes then it starts a new alive life of its own instead of dying and decaying to nothingness....

They are alive. Life is very complex and varied, so does not fit with the simple logic you suggest. Others have noted that the issue of being alive is not the same as has been debated -- about being a person. But sperm and egg, haploid as they are, are alive. Moreover, in some species, eggs have been stimulated to develop into organisms, haploid, so sterile, and necessarily female -- I know this has been done with frogs. But though they cannot reproduce, they are alive.

Just as some of the cells that slough off your skin are alive, haven't died yet.

Quote by: carriew no I dont believe people are created sterile(other factors like hormones play into that) and I did not say that u did. I dont think its ok to exterminate human beings sterile or not. I feel bad for ants and insects I have to kill in my home. and i know they are not humans. and they are not alive by more than just that one crietera. they dont eat. they dont metabolize anything. the dont grow. do I have to put up the list????

Actually, eggs have mitochondria so can metabolize ATP -- which is what mitochondria do in all cells to produce energy. You're getting your shorts in a twist over your own definition of 'alive.' And it's all so you can 'prove' that embryos are 'human beings.' So you are getting upset when someone throws a spanner (and a deceptive one at that) into a special definition you are using to establish a point that many of us see as irrelevant. I, for one, do not accept a definition of human being that references only biology, the genome. If you see humans as no more than their biology, why get upset about the death of any of them?

Quote by: Starboy carriew, I do not comprehend how you think. It doesn't matter how they came to be sterile. They can't reproduce. They can no more reproduce than a lone egg or a lone sperm. Yet you do not seem to mind killing sperm and as far as I know you don't care about killing eggs. Starboy

Should we start a Cum-flakes project whereby good Christian families would adopt homeless sperm? Just imagine the public-service messages: "Quick -- get up out of bed and whip that condom into the freezer. Later, pack it in dry ice and mail it to Cum-flakes. We'll make sure all those millions of sperm get good homes."

Quote by: Dadoo Star Boy- Not intended to confuse, but I am seriously contemplating what this means to me, even if only in a completely rhetorical sense. The sperm and egg do consume sugars in order to form and utilize mitochondrial ATP; cellular energy. They also reproduce, asexually, as it were (ironical, 'eh)-- at least, sperm do. And to say they aren't "human"? Is your finger "human". Aye, all cells "human" are Human. As far as morality.. all sides must be considered. However, I don't care one way or the other about abortion. Non-sequitor. I did not mention morality, and we should keep this topic , on -topic. I am baffled by our terminologies. If a belief or viewpoint can swallowed up by an encompassing concept or phenomenon, then the larger picture begs to be confronted, apprehended and applied, if possible. So, when does "life" begin? Many definitions of what life is, I see. Is this possible, as we live together in a shared universe experience? StarBoy- you actually are working the same bit of logic as I. It is pertinent, to minds that can grasp the implications, I bet.

As I understand it, the sperm do not have mitochondria so do not break the ATP bonds (triple-phosphate bonds store a lot of energy) to liberate energy, whereas the eggs do.

Quote by: Hostile55 People dye all the time.

And in consequence we have colorful clothing.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dirty Name said:
I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

I say:
Yea, me too. Most of it I see though comes from one side of religion or another, which is why I am gladly, and permanently without religion.

Hostile55 said:
I think life is a fascinating thing. What I like most about life on this planet is that when we (humans) eventually kill each other off, life will still go on. FANTASTIC. Human life isn't anything special. People dye all the time. Does it make a difference? Not really. Quite frankly I think there are just far to many people on this planet for comfort and abortion is a great thing. If a 13 year old were to get pregnant, would we rather have an amorphous clump of stem cells destroyed, or have a child raise a child? Certainly I love and cherish children and that is my main reason for not wanting any of my own. I would not want to bring another inoccent life into this god forsaken world. It breaks my heart every day to see children mistreated by the very people who are supposed to love and nuture them. Neglect is one of the most widespread forms of abuse in western society, and you only have to look around to see the symptoms of it; antisocial behaviour, youth crimes, drug abuse, apathy, depression, etc. Some see abortion as murder. I see it as mercy killing.

I say:
Well said, and I have to say I share many of your enumerated views. I underlined the ones I agree with the most.

northtexan said:
Should we start a Cum-flakes project whereby good Christian families would adopt homeless sperm? Just imagine the public-service messages: "Quick -- get up out of bed and whip that condom into the freezer. Later, pack it in dry ice and mail it to Cum-flakes. We'll make sure all those millions of sperm get good homes."

I say:
You forgot to mention the "complimentary" funeral processions every time a woman has her period...... ROFLMAO.

The "save life at all costs" mentality, is beyond me on all levels, but mainly on the rational level.

"life" as we know it begins at birth, and anything before that is rather moot, since we can't remember it afterward, or be aware of it as we go through it.

[Boetie]

Hostile55 posts Human life isn't anything special. People dye all the time. Does it make a difference? Not really.

I take it that you apply the above to yourself. That your life isn't anything special. I have a large cross you can hang yourself on. It's sturdy and it's fun. Just put it in your living room and when your friends or family enter the room, they will get a jolt when they see you up on your cross. When they stand around to get a better look you can wail out, "Human life isn't anything special. People dye all the time. Does it make a difference? Not really" That will really impress your friends and family. Oh by the way the cross is made out of light weight material so it'll be easy to carry around.

[Dirty Name]

Is trying to be moral a negative thing?

It's a waste of time unless you have some absolute standard with which to measure against.

[Athena]

Quote by: Dirty Name I love all of the philosophical nonsense people post in order to assuage their desire to be moral.

I don't know, but I think this is a narrow minded, self righteious statement. There are moral arguments against abortion and moral arguments for abortion. It is offensive to deny someone else his/her sense of morality, on the grounds it is not your morality. There is a difference between disagreeing, and suggesting someone else is not moral.

However, in my time reading these arguments, I am concerned about how much others value life. I think there are some arguing in the forums who do not value life, their own or someone elses. I think this is more serious than the abortion arguement. Those who favor abortion, may very much value life, so it is not necessarily an anti life argument. But some arguing in favor of abortion, do seem to devalue human life.

[Athena]

Quote by: Dirty Name It's a waste of time unless you have some absolute standard with which to measure against.

People who believe in absolutes, are absolutely dangerous.

[Jack]

I take it that you apply the above to yourself. That your life isn't anything special. I have a large cross you can hang yourself on

I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. Could it be, "Since you don't agree with me that human life is sacred you should kill yourself"? Sounds like it.
I happen to agree that humans are not a chosen lifeform. We are as useful and as useless as any other form of life on the planet. Only religion and crackpot science considers humans unique, special and above all other life.