[Open Source Energy] Geothermal

[m3talsmith_redu]

I'd like to start a series on various energies in the hope of providing Open Source Energy manuals (aka Open instructions, how-to's, and experiments for all the public).

I'd like to first ask about Geothermal technologies, how it works, why it (supposedly) violates the laws of thermodynamics, and how do we tap into it.

Who wants to start first?

[m3talsmith_redu]

I would like to point out that there are a few fringe sites out there with some information. I'd like this to be based on real data that can be easily duplicated and verified before it makes it into the manual. I will be using this board as a means to this end.

[gallo]

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu I'd like to first ask about Geothermal technologies, how it works, why it (supposedly) violates the laws of thermodynamics, and how do we tap into it.

Geothermal technologies do not violate the laws of thermodynamics. If you believe that it does, I think that your chances of "tapping into it" are very close to zero. I think that if you actually want to write Open Source Energy manuals, it might be a good idea to learn about thermodynamics since thermo will be involved in everything you do. You could start with figuring out why geothermal technology doesn't violate the laws of thermo.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: gallo Geothermal technologies do not violate the laws of thermodynamics. If you believe that it does, I think that your chances of "tapping into it" are very close to zero. I think that if you actually want to write Open Source Energy manuals, it might be a good idea to learn about thermodynamics since thermo will be involved in everything you do. You could start with figuring out why geothermal technology doesn't violate the laws of thermo.

This is exactly why I said supposedly. That has been an argument used against me before when I claimed that it did not violate the laws of thermodynamics. The opposing argument was that once an energy is used it cannot be reused, entropy kills it. Certain Geothermal uses have a COP of greater than 1.0, which means that they create more than energy than they use, which would violate the reuse/entropy part of the law. Such was the argument used against me.

[PatrickHenry]

Geothermal is a proven technology for for heating and electricity generation.

Iceland uses GT for heat extensively, I believe. And this island where I live has an electricity plant based on volcanic heat from Kilauea.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: PatrickHenry ...And this island where I live has an electricity plant based on volcanic heat from Kilauea.

Nice :)!

[PatrickHenry]

http://www.punageothermalventure.com/
Take the photo tour...

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu I'd like to start a series on various energies in the hope of providing Open Source Energy manuals (aka Open instructions, how-to's, and experiments for all the public). I'd like to first ask about Geothermal technologies, how it works, why it (supposedly) violates the laws of thermodynamics, and how do we tap into it. Who wants to start first?

Nothing in the universe violates thermodynamics.

You're possibly thinking of a perpetual motion machines, which would violate the law if ever built. So far, no one has ever built one nor will anyone ever be able to.


The basic idea (I think) would be to stick very long pipes into the ground where the earth's very hot sub layers would heat up water in the pipes to steam. Then the steam could turn turbines for electricity.

Of course this works great, but no one will invest in it. Power companies all use coal burning plants. They're not going to waste a bunch of money to build the infrastructure to use geothermal or any other source for that matter.

[MerlinsByte]

[Open Source Energy] Geothermal

You can tap in to the earth’s energy almost anywhere on earth. The best known geothermal energy sources are steam and heat that lie close to the surface in the form of volcanism or a geological hot spot. The earth’s center, or core, is molten metal , or so say the science gurus, and I have no reason to doubt them. Residues and out venting of this heat is what drives plate tectonics, volcanoes ,earthquakes and heat that can be used by us in the form of steam to drive turbines or heat exchanger.

The earth is a constant temp in most parts of the world. Some passive technologies take advantage of this fact and use the earth for a passive heater or air cooler. The law of thermodynamics isn’t violated because you are exchanging heat for cool or vice versa.

mb

[gallo]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Nothing in the universe violates thermodynamics.

That depends. Your statement would be correct if you had added, "...for longer than a second or two." For a long time there have been observations of microscopic particles that did not conform to the laws of thermodynamics. In order to reconcile the behaviour of these particles with thermo, "fluctuation theorem" was developed. Back in 2002 predictions of "fluctuation theorem" were successfully tested. Random and spontaneous decreases in entropy were observed. But the time periods involved were short, no more that 2 seconds, and the decrease was paid back with a corresponding increase as equilibrium was restored. But still, even though temporary, it is a violation of thermodynamics. However, there doesn't seem to be any way to take advantage of this "violation" and there doesn't appear to be any prospects of doing so in the future.

Iceland derives energy from geothermal sources.

[tman_ndsu08]

Ok, nothing worth mentioning violates TD.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: gallo That depends. Your statement would be correct if you had added, "...for longer than a second or two." For a long time there have been observations of microscopic particles that did not conform to the laws of thermodynamics. In order to reconcile the behaviour of these particles with thermo, "fluctuation theorem" was developed. Back in 2002 predictions of "fluctuation theorem" were successfully tested. Random and spontaneous decreases in entropy were observed. But the time periods involved were short, no more that 2 seconds, and the decrease was paid back with a corresponding increase as equilibrium was restored. But still, even though temporary, it is a violation of thermodynamics. However, there doesn't seem to be any way to take advantage of this "violation" and there doesn't appear to be any prospects of doing so in the future. Iceland derives energy from geothermal sources.

This is actually interesting. You say it happens randomly, but I wonder how big their sampling was time-wise. They are finding out that the shifts in magnetic fields across the globe are not random but follow long term trends, and I'm wondering if that is what causes this fluctuation in entropy, and if so if we can find an average trend and tap into it.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Ok I like the idea of pipes down into the ground to tap into steam, and the hotspot areas (usually related to volcanic activity), but how can the common man tap into this, and where? That's the first question we need to define.

[gallo]

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu You say it happens randomly, but I wonder how big their sampling was time-wise.

These random decreases in entropy lasted less than 2 seconds.

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu They are finding out that the shifts in magnetic fields across the globe are not random but follow long term trends, and I'm wondering if that is what causes this fluctuation in entropy, and if so if we can find an average trend and tap into it.

I doubt that it had anything to do with magnetic fluctuations. The first observations were made on microscopic particles and the verification of the predictions was done using microscopic latex balls. I'm not sure of the details. There may be some practical application somewhere, sometime - nanotechnology, computer technology, or something - but I'm really doubtful that enough energy could be derived to power a pen light.

[gallo]

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu Ok I like the idea of pipes down into the ground to tap into steam, and the hotspot areas (usually related to volcanic activity), but how can the common man tap into this, and where? That's the first question we need to define.

Two locations have already been discussed, Hawaii and Iceland.

I talked to a nuclear engineer about the steel grid to capture lightning concept. He wasn't impressed. Of course he used to work "up stream" from the steam generator at the nuclear plant. His roommate at the time worked "down stream", with the actual turbine generators. Anyway, he expressed the idea that a lightning strike is going somewhere along the path of least resistance, and that path may not always be where you think or want it to be. A grid on the ground would, of course, lead the change to ground, so the grid would have to be insulated from ground except where you want it to go. Also, that charge has just arced across a huge distance, maybe miles. To arc a few inches or feet to ground wouldn't be much. You've got to remember that you are dealing with several hundred million volts. Not easily controled. Lightning hit a street light in front of my house. My kids were in the front yard and their ears rung for hours. It fried my TV, my computer and a disk drive. The coils on the CRT were actually melted and there was a black trace across several of the printed circuits on the mother board of the computer.

Maybe there's a reason why people haven't tried to capture lightning before.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: gallo Two locations have already been discussed, Hawaii and Iceland.

Those are on a large scale. What I'm thinking about is a smaller experimental scale that a single person or team can experiment with and take advantage of in more desolate places and in the country.

That's part of the goal of Open Source Energy; not being tied down to large corporations or funding to be able to experiment and/or use.

[PatrickHenry]

Geothermal resources are located too deep for back yard technologists, I think. If you really want some access to power, think PV, wind, small scale hydro. Solar cooking anyone? Why reinvent the wheel? People are using these tecniques right now...

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Geothermal resources are located too deep for back yard technologists, I think. If you really want some access to power, think PV, wind, small scale hydro. Solar cooking anyone? Why reinvent the wheel? People are using these tecniques right now...

Good point. However I rented a house that had geothermal heating and cooling, and it's much more comfortable to live in than forced air and boiler heat. So I'm thinking of a all in one house project maybe. Just an idea.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: m3talsmith_redu Good point. However I rented a house that had geothermal heating and cooling, and it's much more comfortable to live in than forced air and boiler heat. So I'm thinking of a all in one house project maybe. Just an idea.

Your heat source/sink at home is technically referred to as a heat pump. Not the same as geothermal. But it does have potential for savings on home heating and cooling. Requires electricity to work...

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Your heat source/sink at home is technically referred to as a heat pump. Not the same as geothermal. But it does have potential for savings on home heating and cooling. Requires electricity to work...

Yes it is, and yes it does require electricity. That's why I'm looking at the second portion, how to us it to generate electricity at the same time as using it for a heat exchange.