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ProjectOrion · Feb 10, 2004, 07:09 pm

ProjectOrion.com

Orion is one of the great "what if's" of the twentieth century. Today, nuclear powered spaceships seem like little more than laughably naive 1950's science fiction, but it might have been otherwise...and still could be. Orion was the code name of a project designed to discover the feasibility of spaceships driven by nuclear bombs.

The initial plan called for manned missions to Mars by 1965 and Saturn by 1970. After seven years of work, the project's technical challenges seemed surmountable, but political obstacles brought the effort to a halt.

This was the most shortsighted decision in all of history. The public was never consulted and instead we redirected all funding towards Apollo. We put a flag on the moon and nobody has been back there in over 30 years. We might have gone Pluto.

An Orion could be launched safely from Earth. Even back in the 60's an entire 'series' of launches would only have produced 1% of the fallout known to have been created from weapons testing. One launch today with strategies in place to reduce residual radiation would cause no measurable damage to the environment but would open space to colonisation. The research and development money would be well spent as further Orions could be built from space resources. An Orion could lift all the industrial infrastructure necessary to mine, refine and use asteroid material.

In no time at all we would have a fleet of heavy ships perhaps 100,000 tons each ready and waiting to take us anywhere in the solar system. The profits from various space industries would be astronomical. The TV rights alone would finance a new range of orbital vehicles for meeting these Super Space Carriers. Within 20 years we might be building Starships. There would be bases on every suitable moon and planet. Research stations as far out as the Oort cloud.

Building an Orion requires no government permission or new technology. The pulse units are too difficult to obtain so we ignore them for now. Without pulse units the cost is atleast halved and the engineering becomes straightforward. Pulse units might later be designed to suit the vehicle. That will depend upon the political climate. Ultimately in the hands of the public who will need to become more informed. A real Orion ready and waiting to be fueled up would provide the motivational force for such eduction.

Even if it never launches it will still make a great tourist attraction.

So I've started a fund.

ProjectOrion.com

white rice · Feb 10, 2004, 09:48 pm

It's like the idea to send all our garbage to the sun. It might sound fantastic, but should the spaceship blow up during launch, America's wang would be one great mess. Accidents do happen. Can you imagine the Challenger disaster with a nuclear powered ship?

ProjectOrion · Feb 10, 2004, 10:03 pm

No atomic bomb has ever accidentally detonated. This is a fact. Chemical rockets are nothing but big fireworks and routinely blow up. So much so that people assume this to be normal. I would feel a lot safer on an Orion than a Shuttle. The fear you expressed is the reason why Orion was cancelled. The administration assumed the same danger existed but were totally wrong. Even if an atomic device blew up for no reason (impossible) the others would remain intact. Thats how difficult it is to set one off. Unlike chemical fuel which only requires setting a match to it. Catastrophic rocket failure is not a serious concern with Orions. There would be no strict weightsaving measures aboard an Orion either. Every conceivable safety measure could be taken. Back up systems for the back up systems back up systems and then some. It could be built rugged and tough like spacecraft were meant to be. The concept is revolutionary yet surprisingly simple. This is a good thing. Conventional rocket boosters are way too complex. Far too many things can go wrong and the flimsy structure can't deal with such problems. Pulse units aboard an Orion are perfectly safe. They can't go off until armed and given detonation codes. Once outside the ship the pusher plate which masses a thousand tons or more shields the ship and collects the plasma energy. This is directed through a long shock absorber system which spreads out the force over a second or more. Nuclear detonations only last a microsecond. Not long enough for heat to melt the pusher and the heat dissipates so quickly we don't even need cooling systems. Simple and extremely robust. Both high exhaust velocity and thrust. Something unheard of with other rocket technologies. It is the only available solution to serious manned spaceflight. Safe, cheap and fantastic but true.

white rice · Feb 10, 2004, 11:54 pm

Even with all the precautions to prevent a nuclear reaction, should an explosion occur (through some other mechanism) the blast radius would be equivalent to a dirty conventional bomb. No machine is perfectly safe, especially with NASA at the helm.

ProjectOrion · Feb 11, 2004, 02:52 am

Thats why I only propose a single launch. It reduces the risk even further. Life is not about eliminating all possible risk anyway but balancing it. You must weigh up the risk and benefits. Over a million people die every year from car accidents. I don't see a mad rush of protestors bombarding the traffic department with demands for such automobiles to become abolished. Why not? Because we believe that the cost is superceded by the right to own a car. Back in the 60's it was estimated that an Orion launch might kill 10 people around the world from cancer given to them by the fallout. This was for a launch straight off the Nevada desert floor with no attempt to control the residual radiation. It would have sucked tons of dirt up through the fireball and irradiated it. I don't support that kind of a launch. What I propose is a launch with every kind of radiation reduction method we can apply. Something as simple as building a thick steel launchpad or a sea platform eradicates that groundburst completely. Something like 99.9999999999% of the fallout is never created. There is only bomb material, atmospheric dust and water vapour to contaminate. More radioisotopes would get pumped out of a coal plant in one day. Further reductions can be accomplished by using specially designed bombs. With weapons the fallout is of no concern. They are designed to kill. Pulse units aren't. It is perfectly reasonable to expect we can make them a lot cleaner. Zero fatalities. We could launch from an isolated region like Antarctica to eliminate any immediate threat to life in the unlikely event of something going wrong. Orion has so much power it can go straight up through the atmosphere without any orbital trajectory. It would be gone in minutes.

http://www.projectorion.com

None of this prevents us from building an Orion without pulse units.

Who said anything about NASA? I wouldn't trust those clowns to build a Go-Kart.

Samildanach · Feb 11, 2004, 07:54 am

Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. It will allow easy access to all rather than just giving the corporation that built an orion a monopoly of asteroid mining. Plus I agree with others that have stated it that accidents do happen. What do you do when the nuclear pulse bombs run out or you get a faulty timer and one that was ment to go off four seconds later goes off immediately instead. Mining the asteroids is a great idea and it will be done one day but it has to be a long term project. I prefer the idea of a tug boat that can bring them back into high earth orbit for a start

Zeebadee · Feb 12, 2004, 04:32 pm

This is a really stupid idea. I believe the minimum yield of a small nuke is about 2 kilotons. The costs trying to tap just enough of the explosive power of 2000 tons of TNT to keep vehicle acceleration within the limits of human endurance and at the same time providing enough detonations to keep the vehicle moving would be much too high, and far more than the payoff.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 13, 2004, 09:47 am

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Samildanach,)
Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. It will allow easy access to all rather than just giving the corporation that built an orion a monopoly of asteroid mining. Plus I agree with others that have stated it that accidents do happen. What do you do when the nuclear pulse bombs run out or you get a faulty timer and one that was ment to go off four seconds later goes off immediately instead. Mining the asteroids is a great idea and it will be done one day but it has to be a long term project. I prefer the idea of a tug boat that can bring them back into high earth orbit for a start<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I second that notion, as soon as carbon tubes become accessible it'll be a matter of a decade or two before we can see the results of it.

spat · Feb 13, 2004, 09:48 am

In the 50's we detonated lots of atmospheric nukes (some *much* bigger than anything planned for a project like this), and no, we didn't end up with mass destruction and the end of civilization.

What would have happened if the challenger happened to a craft like this ??

The military would have mobilized to secure the wreckage as fast as possible before any terrorists could get ahold of the material. That would be the biggest concern after any disaster.

Sometimes the rewards are worth risk. People seem to forget that these days.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 13, 2004, 11:15 am

You'd probably get worse radiation from a coal burning power plant (where alot of isotopes reside), meh, stupid ppl breed fear.

ProjectOrion · Feb 14, 2004, 06:36 pm

"Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. "

People have been saying the same thing about fusion drives for the last 50 years or more. I think you should stop and consider the possibility you might be waiting forever. None of the more exotic launch ideas show any sign of being used soon. This "something better will come along" mantra is not what drives innovation. Hands on engineering does. We have to use workable technologies to the best of our ability and discover new concepts along the way. Plain straightforward trial and error. Orion is the best technology available and the sooner we start developing it the sooner interplanetary manned spaceflight will become a reality.

"Sometimes the rewards are worth risk. People seem to forget that these days."

The rewards are incredible. Material resources alone are astronomical. Asteroids could easily be turned into fleets of ships, space stations and solar arrays. Unlimited electricity means cheap Hydrogen too. Most people would then change over to electric or Hydrogen cars to save a fortune in fuel costs. The environment would be saved as fossil fuel industries went belly up. Conquering space would have massive consequences down here. People don't seem to realise that. They think it only means a flag ceremony on Mars. Not with a big Orion launch. It gives us a permanent foothold in space and the kind of payload capability that can really achieve things. We are after all explorers and discoverers. Space is the only direction left that is truly challenging and this is the best answer to getting established out there.

http://www.projectorion.com

Feb 10, 2004, 09:48 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	It's like the idea to send all our garbage to the sun. It might sound fantastic, but should the spaceship blow up during launch, America's wang would be one great mess. Accidents do happen. Can you imagine the Challenger disaster with a nuclear powered ship? Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Feb 10, 2004, 11:54 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	Even with all the precautions to prevent a nuclear reaction, should an explosion occur (through some other mechanism) the blast radius would be equivalent to a dirty conventional bomb. No machine is perfectly safe, especially with NASA at the helm. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Feb 11, 2004, 07:54 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. It will allow easy access to all rather than just giving the corporation that built an orion a monopoly of asteroid mining. Plus I agree with others that have stated it that accidents do happen. What do you do when the nuclear pulse bombs run out or you get a faulty timer and one that was ment to go off four seconds later goes off immediately instead. Mining the asteroids is a great idea and it will be done one day but it has to be a long term project. I prefer the idea of a tug boat that can bring them back into high earth orbit for a start I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 12, 2004, 04:32 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,701	This is a really stupid idea. I believe the minimum yield of a small nuke is about 2 kilotons. The costs trying to tap just enough of the explosive power of 2000 tons of TNT to keep vehicle acceleration within the limits of human endurance and at the same time providing enough detonations to keep the vehicle moving would be much too high, and far more than the payoff. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Feb 13, 2004, 09:47 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Samildanach,) Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. It will allow easy access to all rather than just giving the corporation that built an orion a monopoly of asteroid mining. Plus I agree with others that have stated it that accidents do happen. What do you do when the nuclear pulse bombs run out or you get a faulty timer and one that was ment to go off four seconds later goes off immediately instead. Mining the asteroids is a great idea and it will be done one day but it has to be a long term project. I prefer the idea of a tug boat that can bring them back into high earth orbit for a start<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I second that notion, as soon as carbon tubes become accessible it'll be a matter of a decade or two before we can see the results of it. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 10, 2004, 07:09 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
ProjectOrion Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	ProjectOrion.com Orion is one of the great "what if's" of the twentieth century. Today, nuclear powered spaceships seem like little more than laughably naive 1950's science fiction, but it might have been otherwise...and still could be. Orion was the code name of a project designed to discover the feasibility of spaceships driven by nuclear bombs. The initial plan called for manned missions to Mars by 1965 and Saturn by 1970. After seven years of work, the project's technical challenges seemed surmountable, but political obstacles brought the effort to a halt. This was the most shortsighted decision in all of history. The public was never consulted and instead we redirected all funding towards Apollo. We put a flag on the moon and nobody has been back there in over 30 years. We might have gone Pluto. An Orion could be launched safely from Earth. Even back in the 60's an entire 'series' of launches would only have produced 1% of the fallout known to have been created from weapons testing. One launch today with strategies in place to reduce residual radiation would cause no measurable damage to the environment but would open space to colonisation. The research and development money would be well spent as further Orions could be built from space resources. An Orion could lift all the industrial infrastructure necessary to mine, refine and use asteroid material. In no time at all we would have a fleet of heavy ships perhaps 100,000 tons each ready and waiting to take us anywhere in the solar system. The profits from various space industries would be astronomical. The TV rights alone would finance a new range of orbital vehicles for meeting these Super Space Carriers. Within 20 years we might be building Starships. There would be bases on every suitable moon and planet. Research stations as far out as the Oort cloud. Building an Orion requires no government permission or new technology. The pulse units are too difficult to obtain so we ignore them for now. Without pulse units the cost is atleast halved and the engineering becomes straightforward. Pulse units might later be designed to suit the vehicle. That will depend upon the political climate. Ultimately in the hands of the public who will need to become more informed. A real Orion ready and waiting to be fueled up would provide the motivational force for such eduction. Even if it never launches it will still make a great tourist attraction. So I've started a fund. ProjectOrion.com

Feb 10, 2004, 10:03 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
ProjectOrion Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	No atomic bomb has ever accidentally detonated. This is a fact. Chemical rockets are nothing but big fireworks and routinely blow up. So much so that people assume this to be normal. I would feel a lot safer on an Orion than a Shuttle. The fear you expressed is the reason why Orion was cancelled. The administration assumed the same danger existed but were totally wrong. Even if an atomic device blew up for no reason (impossible) the others would remain intact. Thats how difficult it is to set one off. Unlike chemical fuel which only requires setting a match to it. Catastrophic rocket failure is not a serious concern with Orions. There would be no strict weightsaving measures aboard an Orion either. Every conceivable safety measure could be taken. Back up systems for the back up systems back up systems and then some. It could be built rugged and tough like spacecraft were meant to be. The concept is revolutionary yet surprisingly simple. This is a good thing. Conventional rocket boosters are way too complex. Far too many things can go wrong and the flimsy structure can't deal with such problems. Pulse units aboard an Orion are perfectly safe. They can't go off until armed and given detonation codes. Once outside the ship the pusher plate which masses a thousand tons or more shields the ship and collects the plasma energy. This is directed through a long shock absorber system which spreads out the force over a second or more. Nuclear detonations only last a microsecond. Not long enough for heat to melt the pusher and the heat dissipates so quickly we don't even need cooling systems. Simple and extremely robust. Both high exhaust velocity and thrust. Something unheard of with other rocket technologies. It is the only available solution to serious manned spaceflight. Safe, cheap and fantastic but true.

Feb 11, 2004, 02:52 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
ProjectOrion Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	Thats why I only propose a single launch. It reduces the risk even further. Life is not about eliminating all possible risk anyway but balancing it. You must weigh up the risk and benefits. Over a million people die every year from car accidents. I don't see a mad rush of protestors bombarding the traffic department with demands for such automobiles to become abolished. Why not? Because we believe that the cost is superceded by the right to own a car. Back in the 60's it was estimated that an Orion launch might kill 10 people around the world from cancer given to them by the fallout. This was for a launch straight off the Nevada desert floor with no attempt to control the residual radiation. It would have sucked tons of dirt up through the fireball and irradiated it. I don't support that kind of a launch. What I propose is a launch with every kind of radiation reduction method we can apply. Something as simple as building a thick steel launchpad or a sea platform eradicates that groundburst completely. Something like 99.9999999999% of the fallout is never created. There is only bomb material, atmospheric dust and water vapour to contaminate. More radioisotopes would get pumped out of a coal plant in one day. Further reductions can be accomplished by using specially designed bombs. With weapons the fallout is of no concern. They are designed to kill. Pulse units aren't. It is perfectly reasonable to expect we can make them a lot cleaner. Zero fatalities. We could launch from an isolated region like Antarctica to eliminate any immediate threat to life in the unlikely event of something going wrong. Orion has so much power it can go straight up through the atmosphere without any orbital trajectory. It would be gone in minutes. http://www.projectorion.com None of this prevents us from building an Orion without pulse units. Who said anything about NASA? I wouldn't trust those clowns to build a Go-Kart.

Feb 13, 2004, 09:48 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
spat Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	In the 50's we detonated lots of atmospheric nukes (some much bigger than anything planned for a project like this), and no, we didn't end up with mass destruction and the end of civilization. What would have happened if the challenger happened to a craft like this ?? The military would have mobilized to secure the wreckage as fast as possible before any terrorists could get ahold of the material. That would be the biggest concern after any disaster. Sometimes the rewards are worth risk. People seem to forget that these days.

Feb 13, 2004, 11:15 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	You'd probably get worse radiation from a coal burning power plant (where alot of isotopes reside), meh, stupid ppl breed fear. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 14, 2004, 06:36 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
ProjectOrion Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	"Think I'll wait for the space elevator. It will take about the same time to construct. " People have been saying the same thing about fusion drives for the last 50 years or more. I think you should stop and consider the possibility you might be waiting forever. None of the more exotic launch ideas show any sign of being used soon. This "something better will come along" mantra is not what drives innovation. Hands on engineering does. We have to use workable technologies to the best of our ability and discover new concepts along the way. Plain straightforward trial and error. Orion is the best technology available and the sooner we start developing it the sooner interplanetary manned spaceflight will become a reality. "Sometimes the rewards are worth risk. People seem to forget that these days." The rewards are incredible. Material resources alone are astronomical. Asteroids could easily be turned into fleets of ships, space stations and solar arrays. Unlimited electricity means cheap Hydrogen too. Most people would then change over to electric or Hydrogen cars to save a fortune in fuel costs. The environment would be saved as fossil fuel industries went belly up. Conquering space would have massive consequences down here. People don't seem to realise that. They think it only means a flag ceremony on Mars. Not with a big Orion launch. It gives us a permanent foothold in space and the kind of payload capability that can really achieve things. We are after all explorers and discoverers. Space is the only direction left that is truly challenging and this is the best answer to getting established out there. http://www.projectorion.com