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Plaything48 · Jan 25, 2004, 04:04 pm

What are your views on cryogenics?
In some ways I agree with the whole idea. You freeze the organism for preservation until more advanced technology can revive them, cure what killed them and undo any damage associated with the preservation process.

**Pooeypants** · Jan 25, 2004, 05:18 pm

Rather silly notion, as my physics teacher says. Although if they stop water crystalisation and thus preventing cell lysis they'd be onto something.

Plaything48 · Jan 26, 2004, 10:48 am

'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.'

**Pooeypants** · Jan 26, 2004, 11:20 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,)
'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.'<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Well researched, but how are we going to inject every single cell in our body (or if just the head, all the neurons)?

Plaything48 · Jan 26, 2004, 12:12 pm

I'm not a biologist so I don't know how it all works, but I do know that around 100 people have been cryogenically frozen, with hundreds more on the list.

**Pooeypants** · Jan 26, 2004, 03:22 pm

Indeed, rich ppl wasting their money. As you can see, Sperm cells are gametes, single celled and the reason freezing is effective with them is that they're quite simple cells.

Scribbler1 · Jan 27, 2004, 10:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,)
'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.'<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Well researched, but how are we going to inject every single cell in our body (or if just the head, all the neurons)?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There are scientists studying a frog which cab be frozen stiff over and over and comes back to life every time it's thawed.
There's no reason to inject every cell, BTW. All you have to do is modify the composition of the blood, as that goes to every cell, either directly or indirectly. So if the anti freezing component is in the blood it will be in every cell. It's an impressive sight, watching the researchers freeze these things to the point where they would break if dropped, and then watch them slowly thaw and hop away.

**Pooeypants** · Jan 28, 2004, 11:37 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

There are scientists studying a frog which cab be frozen stiff over and over and comes back to life every time it's thawed.
There's no reason to inject every cell, BTW. All you have to do is modify the composition of the blood, as that goes to every cell, either directly or indirectly. So if the anti freezing component is in the blood it will be in every cell. It's an impressive sight, watching the researchers freeze these things to the point where they would break if dropped, and then watch them slowly thaw and hop away.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
The cells within the frog contains natural antifreeze, if I recall correctly. Now if we can deliver this antifreeze agent to every cell in the body (solubility and its antigenic surface might be a problem), then you'd be onto something.

Immortalist · Feb 3, 2004, 03:31 am

The feasiblity of cryonics is something I am still agnostic on. However with that said, I would much rather be the experimental group than the control group.

Suburbanite · Feb 3, 2004, 05:32 am

I saw a documentary on the subject once. This doctor set out to prove that being frozen works, and ended up dieing in the process if I remember correctly.

Immortalist · Feb 3, 2004, 03:37 pm

hhhmm,

You don't remember correctly. Cryonics has never been responsible for the death of anyone. The reason why it is such a controversial subject is because it violates traditional ritualistic behavior - such as burials, which is one of the coping mechanisms society has to deal with the occurrence of death.

At the very least, individuals who support cryonics should be left alone by the state to practice their "beliefs". There is really no legitimate reason to object to cryonics -- the practice of freezing (already dead) bodies or heads in suspended animation. You can find it weird or gross, but that doesn't give you the right to interfere in other people's lives.

Best

Immortalist

**Pooeypants** · Feb 3, 2004, 08:22 pm

I'm opposed it because it's non traditional, I'm against the notion of ppl paying insane amount of money when the chances of a safe defrost, so to speak is still a long way in development. It's a scam as far as I can see.

Immortalist · Feb 4, 2004, 01:43 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I'm opposed it because it's non traditional<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I think that is a poor reason for being against something. In vitro fertilization was considered untraditional when it first came out. Neo-luddites such as Leon Kass, currently the chairman for the President's Bio-ethics council, opposed in vitro fertilization on the grounds that it violated the "traditional" method of reproduction. Yet today in vitro is widely accepted by all western societies as a legitimate treament for helping couples conceive who would otherwise not be able to. The worth of a policy or practice should not be judged on whether it is traditional or not, but on it's merits.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I'm against the notion of ppl paying insane amount of money when the chances of a safe defrost, so to speak is still a long way in development.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, for some one frozen in suspended animation, time is no longer much of a concern. And I think this is where you're missing the point. Try to put yourself into the perspective of the cryonicist. What is their rationale for having their bodies preserved in such an odd manner? First of all, I can tell you that not all of them are convinced that cryonics will work (I am not convinced that cryonics will work), they simply believe that there is the possibility of it working at sometime in the future. That sometime could be 100 years from now, it could be 1,000 years from now. The point is that they are making an educated bet. As I said previously, I would rather be in the experimental group than the controlled one.

Second, do you even know how much it costs to take out a cryogenics policy? Obviously you do not. There are life insurance policies that are willing to accomadate cryogenic suspension, and such policies cost literally pennies a day.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It's a scam as far as I can see.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This statement shows your complete lack of knowledge on the subject. A scam would imply that someone is being taken advantage of. No one is being taken advantage of here. Most cryonicists are members of the cryonics community and have carefully thought out their decision to be frozen. In addition, companies such as Alcor (which creates and maintains the cryonics facilities)were founded and are currently run and operated by people who themselves see the logic in cryonics.

Google the cryonics society. You will see that they are a community of people working towards a common goal. Of course, you may find their world view to be "odd". I'll grant you that. To the average person, having yourself frozen is very odd indeed, but please try to refrain from throwing slurs around when it is quite obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sincerely
Immortalist

Immortalist · Feb 4, 2004, 03:36 am

huh, funny. I read the evolution vs creationism thread and I must say Pooeypants, I thought your defense of evolutionary theory was satisfactory.

I didn't have time to read the entire thread (yet), but I did not see any discussion on punctuated equilibrium (which would go along way in explaining the lack of transitional fossil evidence) and very limited discussion on the neutral theory of evolution. I'm sure it was all there and I just missed it.

I'll attempt to be less dismissive of you in the future. I guess I just got the wrong impression of you from your two posts on cryonics.

Sincerely

Immortalist

Immortalist · Feb 4, 2004, 03:46 am

One last thing on cryonics before I hit the hay. The reason that cryonics seems rather pointless to most people is because they do not understand the underlying reason that a person would want to be frozen. Cryonicists don't want to be reanimated as 75 year old men with aching joints and degenerating body. If that were the case cryonics would be very stupid indeed.

What cryonicists are hoping for is to be reanimated at a time in the future when science has progressed to the point where bodies can be reconstructed, all diseases eradicated and the aging process reversed.

Also, the problematic occurence of ice crystals in the freezing process has been more or less negated by the development of vitrification.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Vitrification
Freezing biological materials to the super-low temperature of liquid nitrogen (-320 deg. F.) for future reanimation has been used for decades. However, this process has involved the formation of ice crystals that are damaging to tissues. Recent breakthroughs in research have made possible the vitrification of human organs, in which tissues become a glass-like solid, without the formation of ice crystals. The result is indefinite preservation at near liquid nitrogen temperatures with greatly reduced tissue damage<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Best

Immortalist

**Pooeypants** · Feb 4, 2004, 05:21 am

I know what the whole scheme is about, there are ppl whom get their heads frozen as well. And if there is any damage to the brain tissue during defrosting, that person is screwed. Unless ofc we've got a marvelous machine in the future for repair each neuron.

Plaything48 · Feb 4, 2004, 07:51 am

Suspension procedure

A typical suspension procedure involves several steps.

First, upon legal death -- usually after the heart stops beating and the patient stops breathing -- a local cryonics team cools the patient using such things as a portable ice bath. The goal is to reduce body temperature to between 5°C and 10°C, with the head requiring particular attention to prevent brain damage. The treatment team also keeps blood flowing through the use of such things as anticoagulants and external chest compressions.

The next step is known as washout. In this step, the treatment team replaces the patient's blood with organ-preserving solutions. Following this, they pack the patient in ice and move him or her to a cryonic storage facility. Here they perform perfusion, pumping cryoprotectants such as glycerol through the patient's body.

Next the team cools the patient, using various procedures, to -79°C. If the patient has opted for neurosuspension (head freezing, with the idea that future technology can rebuild a body) then his or her head is removed and frozen. Otherwise, the whole body is frozen. It takes two to seven days to cool a body and about a day to cool a head to the required temperature.

Once the desired temperature is reached, patients are removed, put in a holding tank and cooled to the temperature of liquid nitrogen -- -196°C. Five to seven days later, they are moved to an insulated storage tank. This will either be a stainless-steel dewar or a fiberglass cryostat. Here they await development of the technology required to reanimate and cure them.

Chances are good that this technology will be developed in the next 50 years. Nanotechnology is considered essential to the process, as atomic-scale manipulation would allow for the necessary cellular repairs. In addition, cloning and stem cell therapies are considered important. All three are advancing rapidly.

Misunderstanding and misrepresentation

Mainstream medicine and society in general have made cryonics taboo, but this has less to do with scientific facts than scientific culture, media misrepresentation and public misunderstanding.

First, there's a common misconception that people undergoing cryonic suspension are dead, and therefore to live again must be resurrected. This stems from the fact that medical teams can only perform cryonic suspension on people declared legally dead, to prevent cryonics organizations from opening themselves to criminal or civil charges. But there is a difference between legal death and biological death. Legal death is the point at which a patient's heart stops beating or brain stops working. But this is not the end of all biological function. Studies show that cells in the body can remain alive for several hours after legal death. A better term than death to describe people undergoing cryonic suspension, therefore, is deanimation.

Another problem is that medicine uses clinical trials to gauge the effectiveness of techniques, technologies and medications. But clinical tests for cryonics are currently impossible because they rely on technology that hasn't been invented. Cryonics is therefore an experimental procedure, because nobody has yet revived a suspended patient to demonstrate its success. But it is not unscientific.

Suspension providers

There are several cryonics organizations in the world, most based in the US. These organizations use various processes to freeze people as close to legal death as is possible.

The cost of suspension starts at about US$30,000, but the price can depend on many factors, including the facility, the distance patients are from a facility and whether patients are choosing neurosuspension or full-body suspension. Most costs, however, can be covered by term life, whole life or universal life insurance policies, and several insurance agencies specialize in offering coverage for people interested in cryonic suspension.

For many organizations there are membership fees as well, as they try to promote interaction and involvement. In addition, most if not all employees are members, and some have friends and family already suspended. Such arrangements are intended to ensure the stability of cryonics organizations and guarantee the highest quality procedures.

Immortalist · Feb 4, 2004, 12:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
First, there's a common misconception that people undergoing cryonic suspension are dead, and therefore to live again must be resurrected. This stems from the fact that medical teams can only perform cryonic suspension on people declared legally dead, to prevent cryonics organizations from opening themselves to criminal or civil charges.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ah yes, and what are those charges?!

If I am terminally ill and want to have myself frozen ahead of time to give the cryonics process a better chance of working I believe that should be my right as an individual. Hence, cryonicists, transhumanists and Immortalists are pro-euthanasia.

Let's stop the state from dictating when we live and when we die.

Samildanach · Feb 10, 2004, 07:23 am

My immediate thoughts on Cryonics are 1) Its scientifically feasible 2) Its one hell of alot better to take a long shot than to die not taking it
and 3) For some reason my other thoughts are of the egyptian mummies.
Is it coincidence they were doing something very similar back then? (aside from the pulling your brain out through your nose with a hook of course) also when they find people like that iceman guy who was frozen a while back. Why don't they keep him frozen instead of defrosting and autopsying him. You never know in 100 yrs it may be possible to bring him back. : )

Samildanach · Feb 12, 2004, 12:39 pm

Of course the real problem is do you have a soul when you get back for those of you who are religious?
And if you don't have a soul then how do you define foetuses that have been implanted and grown up after years of being frozen ; )

Jan 25, 2004, 04:04 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	What are your views on cryogenics? In some ways I agree with the whole idea. You freeze the organism for preservation until more advanced technology can revive them, cure what killed them and undo any damage associated with the preservation process. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 25, 2004, 05:18 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	Rather silly notion, as my physics teacher says. Although if they stop water crystalisation and thus preventing cell lysis they'd be onto something. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 26, 2004, 10:48 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.' A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 26, 2004, 11:20 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,) 'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.'<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well researched, but how are we going to inject every single cell in our body (or if just the head, all the neurons)? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 26, 2004, 12:12 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	I'm not a biologist so I don't know how it all works, but I do know that around 100 people have been cryogenically frozen, with hundreds more on the list. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 26, 2004, 03:22 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	Indeed, rich ppl wasting their money. As you can see, Sperm cells are gametes, single celled and the reason freezing is effective with them is that they're quite simple cells. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 27, 2004, 10:29 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,) 'In the mid-1900s, however, scientists discovered that chemicals such as glycerol prevent cell lysis from happening. Infused into tissue or cellular structures, these chemicals, called cryoprotectants, freeze more like smooth glass than jagged spikes. By 1949, researchers had used glycerol to freeze bull sperm, proving its value.'<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well researched, but how are we going to inject every single cell in our body (or if just the head, all the neurons)?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There are scientists studying a frog which cab be frozen stiff over and over and comes back to life every time it's thawed. There's no reason to inject every cell, BTW. All you have to do is modify the composition of the blood, as that goes to every cell, either directly or indirectly. So if the anti freezing component is in the blood it will be in every cell. It's an impressive sight, watching the researchers freeze these things to the point where they would break if dropped, and then watch them slowly thaw and hop away. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Jan 28, 2004, 11:37 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) There are scientists studying a frog which cab be frozen stiff over and over and comes back to life every time it's thawed. There's no reason to inject every cell, BTW. All you have to do is modify the composition of the blood, as that goes to every cell, either directly or indirectly. So if the anti freezing component is in the blood it will be in every cell. It's an impressive sight, watching the researchers freeze these things to the point where they would break if dropped, and then watch them slowly thaw and hop away.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The cells within the frog contains natural antifreeze, if I recall correctly. Now if we can deliver this antifreeze agent to every cell in the body (solubility and its antigenic surface might be a problem), then you'd be onto something. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 3, 2004, 03:31 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	The feasiblity of cryonics is something I am still agnostic on. However with that said, I would much rather be the experimental group than the control group. It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 3, 2004, 05:32 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I saw a documentary on the subject once. This doctor set out to prove that being frozen works, and ended up dieing in the process if I remember correctly.

Feb 3, 2004, 03:37 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	hhhmm, You don't remember correctly. Cryonics has never been responsible for the death of anyone. The reason why it is such a controversial subject is because it violates traditional ritualistic behavior - such as burials, which is one of the coping mechanisms society has to deal with the occurrence of death. At the very least, individuals who support cryonics should be left alone by the state to practice their "beliefs". There is really no legitimate reason to object to cryonics -- the practice of freezing (already dead) bodies or heads in suspended animation. You can find it weird or gross, but that doesn't give you the right to interfere in other people's lives. Best Immortalist It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 3, 2004, 08:22 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	I'm opposed it because it's non traditional, I'm against the notion of ppl paying insane amount of money when the chances of a safe defrost, so to speak is still a long way in development. It's a scam as far as I can see. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 4, 2004, 01:43 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I'm opposed it because it's non traditional<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I think that is a poor reason for being against something. In vitro fertilization was considered untraditional when it first came out. Neo-luddites such as Leon Kass, currently the chairman for the President's Bio-ethics council, opposed in vitro fertilization on the grounds that it violated the "traditional" method of reproduction. Yet today in vitro is widely accepted by all western societies as a legitimate treament for helping couples conceive who would otherwise not be able to. The worth of a policy or practice should not be judged on whether it is traditional or not, but on it's merits. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I'm against the notion of ppl paying insane amount of money when the chances of a safe defrost, so to speak is still a long way in development.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, for some one frozen in suspended animation, time is no longer much of a concern. And I think this is where you're missing the point. Try to put yourself into the perspective of the cryonicist. What is their rationale for having their bodies preserved in such an odd manner? First of all, I can tell you that not all of them are convinced that cryonics will work (I am not convinced that cryonics will work), they simply believe that there is the possibility of it working at sometime in the future. That sometime could be 100 years from now, it could be 1,000 years from now. The point is that they are making an educated bet. As I said previously, I would rather be in the experimental group than the controlled one. Second, do you even know how much it costs to take out a cryogenics policy? Obviously you do not. There are life insurance policies that are willing to accomadate cryogenic suspension, and such policies cost literally pennies a day. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by It's a scam as far as I can see.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This statement shows your complete lack of knowledge on the subject. A scam would imply that someone is being taken advantage of. No one is being taken advantage of here. Most cryonicists are members of the cryonics community and have carefully thought out their decision to be frozen. In addition, companies such as Alcor (which creates and maintains the cryonics facilities)were founded and are currently run and operated by people who themselves see the logic in cryonics. Google the cryonics society. You will see that they are a community of people working towards a common goal. Of course, you may find their world view to be "odd". I'll grant you that. To the average person, having yourself frozen is very odd indeed, but please try to refrain from throwing slurs around when it is quite obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Sincerely Immortalist It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 4, 2004, 03:36 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	huh, funny. I read the evolution vs creationism thread and I must say Pooeypants, I thought your defense of evolutionary theory was satisfactory. I didn't have time to read the entire thread (yet), but I did not see any discussion on punctuated equilibrium (which would go along way in explaining the lack of transitional fossil evidence) and very limited discussion on the neutral theory of evolution. I'm sure it was all there and I just missed it. I'll attempt to be less dismissive of you in the future. I guess I just got the wrong impression of you from your two posts on cryonics. Sincerely Immortalist It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 4, 2004, 03:46 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	One last thing on cryonics before I hit the hay. The reason that cryonics seems rather pointless to most people is because they do not understand the underlying reason that a person would want to be frozen. Cryonicists don't want to be reanimated as 75 year old men with aching joints and degenerating body. If that were the case cryonics would be very stupid indeed. What cryonicists are hoping for is to be reanimated at a time in the future when science has progressed to the point where bodies can be reconstructed, all diseases eradicated and the aging process reversed. Also, the problematic occurence of ice crystals in the freezing process has been more or less negated by the development of vitrification. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Vitrification Freezing biological materials to the super-low temperature of liquid nitrogen (-320 deg. F.) for future reanimation has been used for decades. However, this process has involved the formation of ice crystals that are damaging to tissues. Recent breakthroughs in research have made possible the vitrification of human organs, in which tissues become a glass-like solid, without the formation of ice crystals. The result is indefinite preservation at near liquid nitrogen temperatures with greatly reduced tissue damage<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Best Immortalist It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 4, 2004, 05:21 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	I know what the whole scheme is about, there are ppl whom get their heads frozen as well. And if there is any damage to the brain tissue during defrosting, that person is screwed. Unless ofc we've got a marvelous machine in the future for repair each neuron. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 4, 2004, 07:51 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	Suspension procedure A typical suspension procedure involves several steps. First, upon legal death -- usually after the heart stops beating and the patient stops breathing -- a local cryonics team cools the patient using such things as a portable ice bath. The goal is to reduce body temperature to between 5°C and 10°C, with the head requiring particular attention to prevent brain damage. The treatment team also keeps blood flowing through the use of such things as anticoagulants and external chest compressions. The next step is known as washout. In this step, the treatment team replaces the patient's blood with organ-preserving solutions. Following this, they pack the patient in ice and move him or her to a cryonic storage facility. Here they perform perfusion, pumping cryoprotectants such as glycerol through the patient's body. Next the team cools the patient, using various procedures, to -79°C. If the patient has opted for neurosuspension (head freezing, with the idea that future technology can rebuild a body) then his or her head is removed and frozen. Otherwise, the whole body is frozen. It takes two to seven days to cool a body and about a day to cool a head to the required temperature. Once the desired temperature is reached, patients are removed, put in a holding tank and cooled to the temperature of liquid nitrogen -- -196°C. Five to seven days later, they are moved to an insulated storage tank. This will either be a stainless-steel dewar or a fiberglass cryostat. Here they await development of the technology required to reanimate and cure them. Chances are good that this technology will be developed in the next 50 years. Nanotechnology is considered essential to the process, as atomic-scale manipulation would allow for the necessary cellular repairs. In addition, cloning and stem cell therapies are considered important. All three are advancing rapidly. Misunderstanding and misrepresentation Mainstream medicine and society in general have made cryonics taboo, but this has less to do with scientific facts than scientific culture, media misrepresentation and public misunderstanding. First, there's a common misconception that people undergoing cryonic suspension are dead, and therefore to live again must be resurrected. This stems from the fact that medical teams can only perform cryonic suspension on people declared legally dead, to prevent cryonics organizations from opening themselves to criminal or civil charges. But there is a difference between legal death and biological death. Legal death is the point at which a patient's heart stops beating or brain stops working. But this is not the end of all biological function. Studies show that cells in the body can remain alive for several hours after legal death. A better term than death to describe people undergoing cryonic suspension, therefore, is deanimation. Another problem is that medicine uses clinical trials to gauge the effectiveness of techniques, technologies and medications. But clinical tests for cryonics are currently impossible because they rely on technology that hasn't been invented. Cryonics is therefore an experimental procedure, because nobody has yet revived a suspended patient to demonstrate its success. But it is not unscientific. Suspension providers There are several cryonics organizations in the world, most based in the US. These organizations use various processes to freeze people as close to legal death as is possible. The cost of suspension starts at about US$30,000, but the price can depend on many factors, including the facility, the distance patients are from a facility and whether patients are choosing neurosuspension or full-body suspension. Most costs, however, can be covered by term life, whole life or universal life insurance policies, and several insurance agencies specialize in offering coverage for people interested in cryonic suspension. For many organizations there are membership fees as well, as they try to promote interaction and involvement. In addition, most if not all employees are members, and some have friends and family already suspended. Such arrangements are intended to ensure the stability of cryonics organizations and guarantee the highest quality procedures. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Feb 4, 2004, 12:32 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Immortalist Sedimentary Rock Location: Ridgewood, NJ USA Posts: 12	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by First, there's a common misconception that people undergoing cryonic suspension are dead, and therefore to live again must be resurrected. This stems from the fact that medical teams can only perform cryonic suspension on people declared legally dead, to prevent cryonics organizations from opening themselves to criminal or civil charges.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ah yes, and what are those charges?! If I am terminally ill and want to have myself frozen ahead of time to give the cryonics process a better chance of working I believe that should be my right as an individual. Hence, cryonicists, transhumanists and Immortalists are pro-euthanasia. Let's stop the state from dictating when we live and when we die. It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -- Charles Darwin

Feb 10, 2004, 07:23 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	My immediate thoughts on Cryonics are 1) Its scientifically feasible 2) Its one hell of alot better to take a long shot than to die not taking it and 3) For some reason my other thoughts are of the egyptian mummies. Is it coincidence they were doing something very similar back then? (aside from the pulling your brain out through your nose with a hook of course) also when they find people like that iceman guy who was frozen a while back. Why don't they keep him frozen instead of defrosting and autopsying him. You never know in 100 yrs it may be possible to bring him back. : ) I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 12, 2004, 12:39 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Of course the real problem is do you have a soul when you get back for those of you who are religious? And if you don't have a soul then how do you define foetuses that have been implanted and grown up after years of being frozen ; ) I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)