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Plaything48 · Jan 25, 2004, 08:09 am

I'd be interested to here some replies, preferably from the mouth of a blind person.

KaizerKa · Jan 25, 2004, 11:25 am

Err, not be an arsehole but how are they going to read your post? O)o Although the idea IS an interesting one.

Plaything48 · Jan 25, 2004, 12:35 pm

Sorry, I was hoping someone who knew blind people could ask them, I didnt expect them to read it.

Garath331 · Jan 25, 2004, 03:28 pm

Well, from what I understand, if they had at one point been able to see, then they would dream normaly as people with sight do. But if they have never been able to see, to understand it takes a bit of abstract thinking. You know when you are thinking of something but can't quite get the word? It's something like that.

But then again, do you really see anything when you dream?

Plaything48 · Jan 25, 2004, 03:57 pm

Without getting into it too much, you can't doubt that your mind renders images, predominantly images of recent events, although this doesn't have to be the case. My question is based on those that were born blind, so have never seen. I have had a think about it, and come to the conclusion that our dreams our drawn mainly from are visual or iconic sense. I wouldn't be surprised if blind people have dreams utilising their other senses such as a dream with sound or smell.

Sodfather · Jan 25, 2004, 05:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,)
I wouldn't be surprised if blind people have dreams utilising their other senses such as a dream with sound or smell.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Man, that sucks...A half-hour long dream of smelling your own shit! That would be nasty. Perhaps they would hear the plopping of the fecies in the tolet also, and feel the water splashing up!

Plaything48 · Jan 25, 2004, 05:54 pm

Well, to each his own, but personally shit isn't what's in my mind during restful hours.

FC Mellon · Jan 26, 2004, 07:27 pm

Sodfather..'dreams'...'not nightmares' 8?{

white rice · Jan 26, 2004, 09:20 pm

A very good chunk of your brain function deals with sight. I don't know anything about blind people's dreams secondhand, but that brain power doesn't go to waste. Blind people still hear descriptions and can feel and touch objects while given a visual description. They probably use that information and their imaginations to have images in their dreams, as we do without realizing it.

Paavo · Jan 27, 2004, 09:05 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (KaizerKa,)
Err, not be an arsehole but how are they going to read your post? O)o Although the idea IS an interesting one.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

With a late OS they can have the computer read it out loud for them. : )

As for the topic, I've always thought about it myself. It's there with the "do you see green the same way I do?" and those. :P

blibbka · Jan 30, 2004, 09:34 pm

I read a very interesting book on how blind people understand language related to sight... It covered many topics but in particular went over the philosophical side of it..... Basically, I think yes, blind people (either form birth or from later in life) do "visualise" in dreams, but it's a moot point becuase if you have ben blind from birth, you would have no idea that these "visualisations" are sight, as you'ld have no reference point for it in waking hours.....

Just as the visual universe is there, even though blind people cannot see it, and was there before sighted creatures evolved and would still be there if sighted creatures never came into existence, so, presumably whole dimensions of reality into which a sensory apparatus different to any which any of us posses would plug us, may be there all the time without our knowing.

Another one... I like the story about a sighted man who finds himself on a planet populated by people without sight. He keeps on telling the people what he can see, and in the end the un-sighted people put out his eyes to "cure" his madness. Think it might come from an HG Wells story. Not sure though.

zkreso · Feb 3, 2004, 03:27 am

I heard from an unreliable source which I can't even remember that blind people dream sounds.
Believe it if you want.

white rice · Feb 3, 2004, 05:33 am

There's people who have brains wired so that they hear what they see from their eyes and see what they hear from their ears. That would be a trip to live through.

Plaything48 · Feb 3, 2004, 06:14 am

that's synaesthesia. People who have it relate to those who constantly take LSD, cos thats what it feels like. Theres a book called the man who could taste shapes, which is an interesting read.

bluenadas · Feb 10, 2004, 03:46 am

I think the interesting question on the matter would be if someone is born without sight, does the optical part of the brain become stagnant. As we know this is not true (due to the increased senses that still work) then one could assume that their brain is not 'wired' for the perception of sight. Therefore their brain would not think in a visual sense and their dreams would not encompass any visual stimuli either.

This would be a hard thing to study as well since your test subjects would have no real grasp about sight and couldn't give you a true interpritation of their dreams dealing with visuals.

Feb 10, 2004, 11:42 am

I'm reasonably sure that blind people still have a 3-d spacial "image" of their surroundings and events. Besides reason, we have the common account of blind people wanting to Touch someone's face, feel the contours of a thing. And so, while they may not see (or may visualize a riot of) colors in their dreams, they most likely do dream in forms, with visual cues.

Feb 10, 2004, 01:40 pm

Blind people dream what they interpret things to be like. The more experience of sight they had before their blindness, the more their dreams resemble what those with sight can see. I read that memory isn't formed until a language is comprehended in children and is why we can't remember earlier in our lives.. so that would probably explain whether the blind with dreams have audio or not..

picklejuice · Feb 29, 2004, 12:19 pm

I have always wondered this...do not know any blind people to ask them.

However, I think it would also be interesting to find out if blind people ever have "near death" experiences, and if so do they see the light like other people do etc. ?

NotScientific · Mar 1, 2004, 10:03 am

Good question. I guess there dreams are a little dif from ours (not blind). I can't think of anything else!

Capitalist Pig · Mar 2, 2004, 03:20 am

This thread reminded me of an article I came across last August at BioMedNet. Check out "Visual Dreams In The Congenitally Blind?" by Fernando H. Lopes da Silva. It was published last year in Trends in Cognitive Sciences 7:328-330.

First paragraph of the abstract:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
An EEG study of sleep in congenitally blind persons revealed a significant correlation between the visual activity reported during dreaming and the decrease of alpha strength recorded from the central and occipital regions of the scalp. This provides the first objective evidence that subjects who have never had visual experiences can have dreams with virtual images that are probably mediated by the activation of the cortical areas responsible for visual representations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Edit: Nevermind, I didn't know ScienceDirect requires registration now.

Jan 25, 2004, 08:09 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	I'd be interested to here some replies, preferably from the mouth of a blind person. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 25, 2004, 11:25 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
KaizerKa Sedimentary Rock Posts: 12	Err, not be an arsehole but how are they going to read your post? O)o Although the idea IS an interesting one. http://members.lycos.co.uk/imagesforkaizer/Aliensig.gif

Jan 25, 2004, 12:35 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	Sorry, I was hoping someone who knew blind people could ask them, I didnt expect them to read it. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 25, 2004, 03:28 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Garath331 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	Well, from what I understand, if they had at one point been able to see, then they would dream normaly as people with sight do. But if they have never been able to see, to understand it takes a bit of abstract thinking. You know when you are thinking of something but can't quite get the word? It's something like that. But then again, do you really see anything when you dream? Why do you all hate my God?

Jan 25, 2004, 03:57 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	Without getting into it too much, you can't doubt that your mind renders images, predominantly images of recent events, although this doesn't have to be the case. My question is based on those that were born blind, so have never seen. I have had a think about it, and come to the conclusion that our dreams our drawn mainly from are visual or iconic sense. I wouldn't be surprised if blind people have dreams utilising their other senses such as a dream with sound or smell. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 25, 2004, 05:51 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,) I wouldn't be surprised if blind people have dreams utilising their other senses such as a dream with sound or smell.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Man, that sucks...A half-hour long dream of smelling your own shit! That would be nasty. Perhaps they would hear the plopping of the fecies in the tolet also, and feel the water splashing up!

Jan 25, 2004, 05:54 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	Well, to each his own, but personally shit isn't what's in my mind during restful hours. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 26, 2004, 07:27 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	Sodfather..'dreams'...'not nightmares' 8?{

Jan 26, 2004, 09:20 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	A very good chunk of your brain function deals with sight. I don't know anything about blind people's dreams secondhand, but that brain power doesn't go to waste. Blind people still hear descriptions and can feel and touch objects while given a visual description. They probably use that information and their imaginations to have images in their dreams, as we do without realizing it. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Jan 27, 2004, 09:05 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (KaizerKa,) Err, not be an arsehole but how are they going to read your post? O)o Although the idea IS an interesting one.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> With a late OS they can have the computer read it out loud for them. : ) As for the topic, I've always thought about it myself. It's there with the "do you see green the same way I do?" and those. :P

Jan 30, 2004, 09:34 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
blibbka Molten Ash Location: UK Posts: 130	I read a very interesting book on how blind people understand language related to sight... It covered many topics but in particular went over the philosophical side of it..... Basically, I think yes, blind people (either form birth or from later in life) do "visualise" in dreams, but it's a moot point becuase if you have ben blind from birth, you would have no idea that these "visualisations" are sight, as you'ld have no reference point for it in waking hours..... Just as the visual universe is there, even though blind people cannot see it, and was there before sighted creatures evolved and would still be there if sighted creatures never came into existence, so, presumably whole dimensions of reality into which a sensory apparatus different to any which any of us posses would plug us, may be there all the time without our knowing. Another one... I like the story about a sighted man who finds himself on a planet populated by people without sight. He keeps on telling the people what he can see, and in the end the un-sighted people put out his eyes to "cure" his madness. Think it might come from an HG Wells story. Not sure though.

Feb 3, 2004, 03:27 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
zkreso Sedimentary Rock Location: Norway Posts: 21	I heard from an unreliable source which I can't even remember that blind people dream sounds. Believe it if you want.

Feb 3, 2004, 05:33 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	There's people who have brains wired so that they hear what they see from their eyes and see what they hear from their ears. That would be a trip to live through. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Feb 3, 2004, 06:14 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	that's synaesthesia. People who have it relate to those who constantly take LSD, cos thats what it feels like. Theres a book called the man who could taste shapes, which is an interesting read. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Feb 10, 2004, 03:46 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
bluenadas Sedimentary Rock Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 14	I think the interesting question on the matter would be if someone is born without sight, does the optical part of the brain become stagnant. As we know this is not true (due to the increased senses that still work) then one could assume that their brain is not 'wired' for the perception of sight. Therefore their brain would not think in a visual sense and their dreams would not encompass any visual stimuli either. This would be a hard thing to study as well since your test subjects would have no real grasp about sight and couldn't give you a true interpritation of their dreams dealing with visuals. Liberty in your Lifetime

Feb 10, 2004, 11:42 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Falc Guest Posts: n/a	I'm reasonably sure that blind people still have a 3-d spacial "image" of their surroundings and events. Besides reason, we have the common account of blind people wanting to Touch someone's face, feel the contours of a thing. And so, while they may not see (or may visualize a riot of) colors in their dreams, they most likely do dream in forms, with visual cues.

Feb 10, 2004, 01:40 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
CitizenCOP Guest Posts: n/a	Blind people dream what they interpret things to be like. The more experience of sight they had before their blindness, the more their dreams resemble what those with sight can see. I read that memory isn't formed until a language is comprehended in children and is why we can't remember earlier in our lives.. so that would probably explain whether the blind with dreams have audio or not..

Feb 29, 2004, 12:19 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
picklejuice Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	I have always wondered this...do not know any blind people to ask them. However, I think it would also be interesting to find out if blind people ever have "near death" experiences, and if so do they see the light like other people do etc. ?

Mar 1, 2004, 10:03 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
NotScientific Molten Ash Location: Mauritius Posts: 35	Good question. I guess there dreams are a little dif from ours (not blind). I can't think of anything else! I'm Columnist here at Volconvo.com and also at BackWash.com. Check my columns in the Science forum then.

Mar 2, 2004, 03:20 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Capitalist Pig Market Anarchist Location: United States Posts: 650	This thread reminded me of an article I came across last August at BioMedNet. Check out "Visual Dreams In The Congenitally Blind?" by Fernando H. Lopes da Silva. It was published last year in Trends in Cognitive Sciences 7:328-330. First paragraph of the abstract: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by An EEG study of sleep in congenitally blind persons revealed a significant correlation between the visual activity reported during dreaming and the decrease of alpha strength recorded from the central and occipital regions of the scalp. This provides the first objective evidence that subjects who have never had visual experiences can have dreams with virtual images that are probably mediated by the activation of the cortical areas responsible for visual representations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Edit: Nevermind, I didn't know ScienceDirect requires registration now. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito, qua tua te Fortuna sinet.