Creationism vs. Evolution

[Roger Bartlett]

When did rain begin? Wasn't eve supposed to die when she ate the fruit? How in the Hell does the tower of Babel story make any sense?

Answer to Question #1: When water vapor evaporated into the air and the clouds reached their condensation point and the water vapor was turned into liquid. Or did they not teach you that in school?

Answer to Question #2: She didn't get to live forever in Eden.

Answer to Question #3: Seems pretty straight-forward to me. All those same-language-speaking guys where annoying the heck out of the Big Guy, so he decided to confuse them a little. Think of it as God's first April Fools day.

And I don't blame him for it. Now I can be bilingual and just be that much smarter.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett if apes evolved into humans, are there still apes in the world? Shouldn't they have all evolved by now? Are they just the decendants of the retarded ones that couldn't evolve?

Well first, apes didn't evolved into humans, they just share a common ancestor. I won't blame you, it is a very common misconception. But yeah, IADR pretty much answered the question. That's also the reason why there isn't any jellyfish in forests, for squirrels fit better, but that doesn't mean that there isn't jellyfish in oceans.

In the same way, imagine a piece of land inhabited by the common ancestor of man and apes. For some reasons, the first half of the land become Africa-ish land with no trees, while the second half develop a jungle with lots of trees. The inhabitant then split on 2 parts: the ancestors which finally develop the skill to walk (able to survive in the first half of the land), and the ancestors which developped the skill to jump from tree to tree (better in the second half). After a while, the 2 genotypes are too different, the 2 groups cannot breed with each other: 2 different species are born from one ancestor, man and apes.
This is a schematic explanation, but I hope you understand better.

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet (I didn't feel like reading through the whole flame war), but can anyone tell me why, if apes evolved into humans, are there still apes in the world? Shouldn't they have all evolved by now? Are they just the decendants of the retarded ones that couldn't evolve?

Well, the apes in one area evolved while the apes in another did not. Here's an example. Lets say we have two jungles, separated by a desert. In each jungle, there is a community of apes. But then, one of the jungles goes through a change. This change causes many of the tree's in the area to vanish, leaving lots of space between trees. Now, the apes in that jungle must travel on the ground in order to get to the next tree. They apes who can move faster and better on the ground are more likely to survive, so they'll start to become the majority of the community, meanwhile though, the other jungle has had little change, and with little change, the current traits for the apes there would be more desirable instead of the ones forced to move on the ground.

It's basically working off of geographic isolation.

[gallo]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet (I didn't feel like reading through the whole flame war), but can anyone tell me why, if apes evolved into humans, are there still apes in the world? Shouldn't they have all evolved by now? Are they just the decendants of the retarded ones that couldn't evolve?

Gee, Roger. Can you tell us specifically which species of ape is causing you the problem? I notice that you don't ask why, if cats are all descended from a single kind of cat-like animal, there are 36 different species of cat. Nor do you ask about the 23 species of dogs (not counting domestic breeds of dog). How on earth did we get so many different kinds of domestic dogs? Shouldn't the all be the same? And cattle too? Why so many different breeds of cattle, some for milk others for beef, in addition to buffalo and other bovine species. Shouldn't there only be one kind of cow? Or even elephants! Where did three species of elephant come from?

Could it be that humans didn't "evolve from apes" but only share a common ancestor? It's like this. If you descended from your parents, why are they still alive?

[Jinei]

Quote by: nerdvincent Well first, apes didn't evolved into humans, they just share a common ancestor. I won't blame you, it is a very common misconception.

Perhaps too common... Why the hell don't people learn?

I found this picture to illustrate the fallacy.



Instead of thinking of evolution as progressive steps from "lower" animals to "higher," it's really a bush or tree where all the animals share common ancestors with one another. I believe the "missing link" misconception has its roots with the ladder view as well.

[Brian]

Quote by: Halofan48 Well, the apes in one area evolved while the apes in another did not. Here's an example. Lets say we have two jungles, separated by a desert. In each jungle, there is a community of apes. But then, one of the jungles goes through a change. This change causes many of the tree's in the area to vanish, leaving lots of space between trees. Now, the apes in that jungle must travel on the ground in order to get to the next tree. They apes who can move faster and better on the ground are more likely to survive, so they'll start to become the majority of the community, meanwhile though, the other jungle has had little change, and with little change, the current traits for the apes there would be more desirable instead of the ones forced to move on the ground. It's basically working off of geographic isolation.

They are just descendants off the retarded ones that chose the wrong path in life. If they went with the other group of our common ancestor they would be smart like us.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet (I didn't feel like reading through the whole flame war), but can anyone tell me why, if apes evolved into humans, are there still apes in the world? Shouldn't they have all evolved by now? Are they just the decendants of the retarded ones that couldn't evolve?

Ahh, someone beat me to it.

Basically, chimps and other creatures are technically just as evolved as we are. Our huge success comes down to our intellegence, bipedalism, and opposable thumbs. Physically, we aren't anything special.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Brian They are just descendants off the retarded ones that chose the wrong path in life. If they went with the other group of our common ancestor they would be smart like us.

Why must you say things like that? They aren't descendants of the 'retarded' ones. They just have not recieved the kind of selective pressure that we did, and have evolved differently to accomodate thier environment.

[ItsADirtyRag]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett Answer to Question #1: When water vapor evaporated into the air and the clouds reached their condensation point and the water vapor was turned into liquid. Or did they not teach you that in school? Answer to Question #2: She didn't get to live forever in Eden. Answer to Question #3: Seems pretty straight-forward to me. All those same-language-speaking guys where annoying the heck out of the Big Guy, so he decided to confuse them a little. Think of it as God's first April Fools day. And I don't blame him for it. Now I can be bilingual and just be that much smarter.

On question 1 - I was pointing out the idiocy of the Noah's ark story compared to creation, I wasn't asking for the obvious scientific answer, but thanks, they covered that in elementary school.

On 2 - .....

On 3 - Yeah! This is what I was looking for, some humor!

I hope we have a mutual understanding on the stupidity in the Bible, when the stories are taken as truth. Just remember, it's be that much smarter

[ItsADirtyRag]

Quote by: Brian They are just descendants off the retarded ones that chose the wrong path in life. If they went with the other group of our common ancestor they would be smart like us.

I've got a 1 way ticket for you to the forest - who molested you when you were young?

[Brian]

Quote by: pikatore Why must you say things like that? They aren't descendants of the 'retarded' ones. They just have not recieved the kind of selective pressure that we did, and have evolved differently to accomodate thier environment.

I said it because I was going along with Roger and trying to relate to his response. Excuse me for not being PC. I think if you interacted with a higher intelligent community that should be sufficient pressure to know you are in the wrong place. Remember this happened over millions of years there must have been more opportunity than we know.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Brian I said it because I was going along with Roger and trying to relate to his response. Excuse me for not being PC. I think if you interacted with a higher intelligent community that should be sufficient pressure to know you are in the wrong place. Remember this happened over millions of years there must have been more opportunity than we know.

In the wrong place? It is the ones who evolved who were in the "wrong" place for them. Evolution cannot happen without a harsh and dangerous environment. The rewards are too far in the future and a major instinct has to be violated. Even now that we're smart enough to cross instincts and see that far ahead, besides the Spartans I can't think of anybody who took killing weak babies seriously.

It could happen incidentally. In the age of assault rifles and chain saws and antibiotics we're the dominant species on the planet. We are exerting enormous selective pressure on everything around us. If we go back to those same forests and hunt our distant relatives (or cut down said forests and turn them into urban sprawl) we will have created a harsh environment for them. Who knows?

[gallo]

Quote by: Roger Bartlett Answer to Question #1: When water vapor evaporated into the air and the clouds reached their condensation point and the water vapor was turned into liquid. Or did they not teach you that in school?

Roger, I'm so glad that you understand the water cycle of evaporation and condensation. So, undoubtedly you understand that the process is heat driven. If you add heat to ice, it becomes water, and more heat results in vapor. Of course, if the process goes the other way, you have to release the heat from the vapor and then the water to get ice. The process is pretty much understood, even to the extent that the amount of heat can be calculated very accurately.

So I am sure that you are well aware of the fact that when water vapor condenses into water and produces rain, it releases the heat that caused it to become vapor in the first place. The technical term for this is latent heat. So it must be clear that the condensation of vapor to water that produces rain actually warms the atmosphere. The vapor encounters cool air where it releases its latent heat, thereby warming the air as it condenses. I'm sure it's something we all learned in school.

However, the problem is that when you consider the amount of rain necessary to flood the earth to a depth that would cover the highest mountains by 15 cubits that came down for a period of 40 days. The latent heat released from that much vapor as it condensed to rain would have raised the temperature of the atmosphere well above boiling. So I guess we had Noah soup with a garnish of ark.

Besides that, it would require 4 times the amount of water that is on earth today to produce Noah's flood as the Bible describes it. Where did all the water come from, and where did it all go?

[Tycoon]

They are just descendants off the retarded ones that chose the wrong path in life. If they went with the other group of our common ancestor they would be smart like us.

Evolution only comes out of a necessity to adapt. If the world was perfect and there was an abundance of resources and no predators then an animal would not need to adapt, and would therefore not evolve.

Apes did not evolve because they did not need to. Some of our common ancestors did not just suddenly decide they wanted to adapt and become more intelligent, it happened out of a necessity.

[ItsADirtyRag]

Quote by: gallo Roger, I'm so glad that you understand the water cycle of evaporation and condensation. So, undoubtedly you understand that the process is heat driven. If you add heat to ice, it becomes water, and more heat results in vapor. Of course, if the process goes the other way, you have to release the heat from the vapor and then the water to get ice. The process is pretty much understood, even to the extent that the amount of heat can be calculated very accurately. So I am sure that you are well aware of the fact that when water vapor condenses into water and produces rain, it releases the heat that caused it to become vapor in the first place. The technical term for this is latent heat. So it must be clear that the condensation of vapor to water that produces rain actually warms the atmosphere. The vapor encounters cool air where it releases its latent heat, thereby warming the air as it condenses. I'm sure it's something we all learned in school. However, the problem is that when you consider the amount of rain necessary to flood the earth to a depth that would cover the highest mountains by 15 cubits that came down for a period of 40 days. The latent heat released from that much vapor as it condensed to rain would have raised the temperature of the atmosphere well above boiling. So I guess we had Noah soup with a garnish of ark. Besides that, it would require 4 times the amount of water that is on earth today to produce Noah's flood as the Bible describes it. Where did all the water come from, and where did it all go?

YEAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I learn something new every day, thanks!

[Steve Johnson]

It is extremely sad that humanity rejects truth and replaces it with cerebral prostitution. The ideas in favour of evolution are ridiculous. Halofan48 telling us that a change in habitat caused a common ancestor to evolve into monkeys and humans. Just because one sector remained in the forest would not prevent them from becoming human. The forest itself presents enough challenges for cerebral development.
Jesus Christ is a reality. He performed numerous miracles. Eyewitness reports testify to that fact. An evolutionist will never understand the nature of Christ's miracles because the act of creation was a miracle. The earth was created by God Almighty through supernatural means. Jesus reflected the supernatural through His miracles which He performed in God's name. Christ proved that supernature is a reality. He demonstrated control over the laws of matter.
The Olympics are imminent. There are sprinters who can run a 100 metres in under 10 seconds. Just because you cannot do it does not mean it cannot be done. Christ performed miracles. Do not be envious of Him. Do not cheat Him out of the victory. If you can't perform a miracle, do not assume the same about Christ. God Almighty created the earth. Just because you cannot; do not assume that the Creator is in the same boat as you.
The evolutionist is calling Moses and Jesus liars. This is unacceptable. Look, it is the evolutionist that has completely falsified the truth on the grounds that they are incapable of doing what the Almighty did. It is pure envy.
The truth is an organism can undergo adaptive radiation but that does not mean that humanity evolved from a common ancestor with apes!! It is a ridiculous assumption and deserves to be thrown away with the trash!!

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Steve Johnson It is extremely sad that humanity rejects truth and replaces it with cerebral prostitution. The ideas in favour of evolution are ridiculous. Halofan48 telling us that a change in habitat caused a common ancestor to evolve into monkeys and humans. Just because one sector remained in the forest would not prevent them from becoming human. The forest itself presents enough challenges for cerebral development. Jesus Christ is a reality. He performed numerous miracles. Eyewitness reports testify to that fact. An evolutionist will never understand the nature of Christ's miracles because the act of creation was a miracle. The earth was created by God Almighty through supernatural means. Jesus reflected the supernatural through His miracles which He performed in God's name. Christ proved that supernature is a reality. He demonstrated control over the laws of matter. The Olympics are imminent. There are sprinters who can run a 100 metres in under 10 seconds. Just because you cannot do it does not mean it cannot be done. Christ performed miracles. Do not be envious of Him. Do not cheat Him out of the victory. If you can't perform a miracle, do not assume the same about Christ. God Almighty created the earth. Just because you cannot; do not assume that the Creator is in the same boat as you. The evolutionist is calling Moses and Jesus liars. This is unacceptable. Look, it is the evolutionist that has completely falsified the truth on the grounds that they are incapable of doing what the Almighty did. It is pure envy. The truth is an organism can undergo adaptive radiation but that does not mean that humanity evolved from a common ancestor with apes!! It is a ridiculous assumption and deserves to be thrown away with the trash!!

Evolution is backed by tons of evidence. Creationism lacks evidence. If any theory deserves to be trashed, its the one lacking in evidence.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Steve Johnson It is extremely sad that humanity rejects truth and replaces it with cerebral prostitution. The ideas in favour of evolution are ridiculous. Halofan48 telling us that a change in habitat caused a common ancestor to evolve into monkeys and humans. Just because one sector remained in the forest would not prevent them from becoming human. The forest itself presents enough challenges for cerebral development. Jesus Christ is a reality. He performed numerous miracles. Eyewitness reports testify to that fact. An evolutionist will never understand the nature of Christ's miracles because the act of creation was a miracle. The earth was created by God Almighty through supernatural means. Jesus reflected the supernatural through His miracles which He performed in God's name. Christ proved that supernature is a reality. He demonstrated control over the laws of matter. The Olympics are imminent. There are sprinters who can run a 100 metres in under 10 seconds. Just because you cannot do it does not mean it cannot be done. Christ performed miracles. Do not be envious of Him. Do not cheat Him out of the victory. If you can't perform a miracle, do not assume the same about Christ. God Almighty created the earth. Just because you cannot; do not assume that the Creator is in the same boat as you. The evolutionist is calling Moses and Jesus liars. This is unacceptable. Look, it is the evolutionist that has completely falsified the truth on the grounds that they are incapable of doing what the Almighty did. It is pure envy. The truth is an organism can undergo adaptive radiation but that does not mean that humanity evolved from a common ancestor with apes!! It is a ridiculous assumption and deserves to be thrown away with the trash!!

Yawn, thanks for the sermon. Care to address any of the points raised? or should be just live hand in hand with those dinosaurs that mysteriously dissappeared less than 5000 years ago caused by a flood which is mathematically impossible, as pointed out. Gotta love the religious accusing others of falisying the truth in the context of creationism!

[pikatore]

Quote by: Steve Johnson The forest itself presents enough challenges for cerebral development.

I guess I'll take your word for it!

[gallo]

Quote by: Steve Johnson It is extremely sad that humanity rejects truth and replaces it with cerebral prostitution.

Do you mean when some people reject what they can see with their own eyes in favor of the mythology of ancient, nomadic herdsmen, claiming that the mythology is "TRUTH" (c)? Yeah. That pretty much is intellectual prostitution.

The ideas in favour of evolution are ridiculous. Halofan48 telling us that a change in habitat caused a common ancestor to evolve into monkeys and humans.

Perhaps things would be clearer if you actually read what Halofan said. Halofan said nothing about monkeys. I think the problem is that you are actually trying to discuss things that you don't understand.

Just because one sector remained in the forest would not prevent them from becoming human. The forest itself presents enough challenges for cerebral development.

Challenges, but not the same ones that fostered the increased brain size in that ancestors of humans. Somehow your concepts of evolution seem limited to your religious objections to human evolution. You might make an effort to learn the basics of what you are discussing, otherwise you run the risk of making yourself look foolish. I recommend the following for an understanding of the basic principles of evolutionary biology:

Dawkins, Richard. 1995. [i]River Out Of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life]/i]. Basic Books (Harper and Collins Publishers), New York. 172 p.

Maynard Smith, John. 1993. The Theory of Evolution. Cambridge University Press. Cambridge, Great Britain. 354 p.

Mayr, Ernst. 2001. What Evolution Is. Basic Books (the Perseus Books Group). New York. 318 p.

Futuyma, Douglas. 1998. Evolutionary Biology. Sinauer Associates, Inc. Sunderland, MA. 763 p.

The first is a fairly simple explanation. It is an easy read that covers the basics. It isn't typical of other works by Dawkins that tend to be cutting edge and a bit militant. The next two are excellent summaries of evolutionary theory and how the evidence leads to the theories. Both require some understanding of what science is and how it works, so they may not be suitable for avowed creationists who are unwilling to learn about science. The last is an upper division college level test book. It has been a standard for many years. It will require a pretty good understanding of the basics, as well as college level math (calculus helpful).

Now, for learning about the evidence and the theories of human evolution I recommend the following:

Zimmer, Carl. 2005. Smithsonian Intimate Guide to Human Origins. Smithsonian Books (The Madison Press/HarperCollins Publishers, Inc.), New York. 176 p.

Stringer, Chris and Andrews, Peter. 2005. The Natural History Museum (Thames and Hudson), New York. 240

Tattersall, Ian and Schwartz, Jeffrey. 2000. Extinct Humans. Westview Press (the Perseus Books Group). Boulder, CO. 256 p.

Johnson, Donald and Edgar, Blake. 1996. From Lucy To Language. Simon & Schuster Editions, New York. 272 p.

These books are excellent photographic expositions of the evidence for human evolution. The accompanying text is excellent in all four cases. Carl Zimmer is one of the better science writers of today. The others are all noted paleoanthropologists who are also talented writers.

For more detailed explanations of the evidence, how it was found and why it leads to the theories of evolution you might read the following:

Ian Tattersall. 1995. The Fossil Trail: How we know what we think we know about human evolution. Oxford University Press, New York. 276 p.

Ian Tattersall. 1998. Becoming Human. Harcourt Brace & Co., Orlando. 258 p.

Walker, Alan & Shipman, Pat. 1996. The Wisdom Of The Bones. Vintage Books (Random House), New York. 338 p.

Lewin, Roger. 1987. Bones of Contention: Controversies in the Search for Human Origins. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago. 366 p.

Stringer, Christopher and McKie, Robin. 1996. African Exodus: The Origins of Modern Humanity. Henry Holt and Company, Inc., New York. 282 p.

Stanford, Craig. 2003. Upright: The Evolutionary Key to Becoming Human. Houghton Mifflin Company, New York. 204 p.

The above present various aspects of the evolution of humans, including several theories that are in conflict. Scientists are still looking for the answers to these questions.

Finally, a very entertaining survey of the fossil evidence that leads to the conclusion of evolution.

Fortey, Richard. 1997. Life: A Natural History of the First Four Billion Years of Life on Earth. Alfred A. Knope, Inc. 346 p.

Jesus Christ is a reality.

That is an assumption based on mythology.

He performed numerous miracles.

There is no evidence that he did, only mythology. Why would your god create a universe that operates consistently according to observed natural laws and then suspend those laws on a whim. That would mean that nothing we can observe is reliable.

Eyewit