Creationism vs. Evolution

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Brian What I am saying is you are comparing insects to people.. that is unlogical.. because people are completely different animals.

illogical first of all.

And actually it isn't, it makes sense. The events that occurred cause apes in an area with certain characteristics to be more likely to survive, and this occurred over many, many years, leading to today modern humans. Who knows, we may still be evolving.

[Brian]

Quote by: Halofan48 Ah, but you must see, evolution aids in survival. Lets say you have two groups of bugs from the same species. One is bright red, the other is green. They both dwell in plants and trees. Birds prey on these insects. The green insects are harder to see, and therefore harder to catch, meaning more of them will likely survive compared to the red insects, who are quite visible. With the majority of the remaining insects being green, they are more likely to reproduce and make more green insects, as the red phenotypes begins to dwindle. Natural selection.

I shouldn't have said the last statement about insects and people are different but there is thinking like that in the Bible where it considers the ant and how they work and comparing it to our own life. That is not an original idea to do, the Bible does that too.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian That is good about the bacteria.. but like I said before my problem is not with Evolution it is with the existence of Evolution by itself.

There is such a thing as theistic evolution, but it's not parsimonious. By its very nature, evolution is a mindless process, so it does not need a divine mind behind it. Adding God, in other words, adds nothing.

TC

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian I shouldn't have said the last statement about insects and people are different but there is thinking like that in the Bible where it considers the ant and how they work and comparing it to our own life. That is not an original idea to do, the Bible does that too.

Uh, no, the Bible does not contain the idea of natural selection. In fact, the OT has some wildly mistaken stuff about inheritance. Remember the animals that got stripes by being raised among stripes or somesuch?

TC

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Brian I shouldn't have said the last statement about insects and people are different but there is thinking like that in the Bible where it considers the ant and how they work and comparing it to our own life. That is not an original idea to do, the Bible does that too.

Unless we get a bible from the year 1850 or earlier, and it explains evolution as we know it today, than one can assume it was added to make the bible seem more accurate.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian Yes I am trying to argue that because it is going to happen anyway. There is nothing we can do about it, you can try to teach all you want but people will believe what they want to believe. It is hard to start all over again. Sometimes you just have to take the fact that you dont live in a genious world and there are people that want to believe in fairy tales and things that they want to know as truth. It helps them with their life, and people like you call them ignorant and other mean names, and want nothing to do with it. If that is the people that they will become, it would make no sense to change the course that they are on.

As a secular humanist, I don't see people as inherently corrupt or stupid. You can abuse them by replacing education with indoctrination, but people can overcome abuse. Your theocratic triumphalism is not only tacky, it fails to be convincing.

TC

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal Are you claiming that God creates us through evolution, then? TC

I believe it was a type of evolution, but it was sped up. God knew what he was doing and He knew how the world could be formed and having us exist at the same time. He is a super genius. We are still figuring it out and our idea is that it would have to have took billions of years to do, but God is the Alpha and the Omega.. his experience is beyond us all. He understood those billions of years and there was no stone or even grain of sand that He was not sure of the place where it should be and He made the world in 6 days. It is interesting when He started us, it was actually after a big ice age, it was the most mature the world has ever been. The past 12,000 years have been the most successful for the human population. And to Christians that is no coincidence.

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal There is such a thing as theistic evolution, but it's not parsimonious. By its very nature, evolution is a mindless process, so it does not need a divine mind behind it. Adding God, in other words, adds nothing. TC

It adds experience.

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal Uh, no, the Bible does not contain the idea of natural selection. In fact, the OT has some wildly mistaken stuff about inheritance. Remember the animals that got stripes by being raised among stripes or somesuch? TC

I do not know that one. Well the Bible does say that man is to have dominion over everything and made a little lower than angels.. that sounds like natural selection to me.. or maybe divine selection but still same concept.

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal As a secular humanist, I don't see people as inherently corrupt or stupid. You can abuse them by replacing education with indoctrination, but people can overcome abuse. Your theocratic triumphalism is not only tacky, it fails to be convincing. TC

Indoctrination can be a good thing, except if you are an evolutionist that is just abuse right there, your social skills will suck and people will make fun of you by nature. It is not the education that is the abuse it is the fittest that abuses.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian I believe it was a type of evolution, but it was sped up. God knew what he was doing and He knew how the world could be formed and having us exist at the same time. He is a super genius. We are still figuring it out and our idea is that it would have to have took billions of years to do, but God is the Alpha and the Omega.. his experience is beyond us all. He understood those billions of years and there was no stone or even grain of sand that He was not sure of the place where it should be and He made the world in 6 days. It is interesting when He started us, it was actually after a big ice age, it was the most mature the world has ever been. The past 12,000 years have been the most successful for the human population. And to Christians that is no coincidence.

There is absolutely no reason to think any of this is true. Unless you immediately put forth something that makes a plausible attempt at looking like a rational argument in support of it, you have conceded this point.

TC

[Jinei]

Quote by: Brian I do not know that one. Well the Bible does say that man is to have dominion over everything and made a little lower than angels.. that sounds like natural selection to me.. or maybe divine selection but still same concept.

I may be mistaken here, but I think you're misunderstanding what Natrual Selection is. "Selection" doesn't quite mean what I think you think it means....

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Brian Indoctrination can be a good thing, except if you are an evolutionist that is just abuse right there, your social skills will suck and people will make fun of you by nature. It is not the education that is the abuse it is the fittest that abuses.

Interesting. Any evidence for that? Or is that just an opinion?

As for indoctrination being a good thing, i'm not so sure. To teach someone to blindly accept something with no evidence won't be beneficial to the advancement of mankind.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian Indoctrination can be a good thing, except if you are an evolutionist that is just abuse right there, your social skills will suck and people will make fun of you by nature. It is not the education that is the abuse it is the fittest that abuses.

Hmm, is this an argument or a series of childish insults? I'll let the mods decide.

TC

[Brian]

Quote by: Halofan48 Interesting. Any evidence for that? Or is that just an opinion? As for indoctrination being a good thing, i'm not so sure. To teach someone to blindly accept something with no evidence won't be beneficial to the advancement of mankind.

It is not blind it is an instruction of fundamental truths. Truths that have worked in the harmony of civilizations.. it helps mankind work together.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian It is not blind it is an instruction of fundamental truths. Truths that have worked in the harmony of civilizations.. it helps mankind work together.

Or, in other words, no evidence whatsoever.

TC

[Halofan48]

Quote by: Brian It is not blind it is an instruction of fundamental truths. Truths that have worked in the harmony of civilizations.. it helps mankind work together.

So you will teach them that it could be wrong and encourage skepticism of christianity and it's beliefs and that you are just teaching them what your religion says, that it may be fallible?

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal There is absolutely no reason to think any of this is true. Unless you immediately put forth something that makes a plausible attempt at looking like a rational argument in support of it, you have conceded this point. TC

"Nature is what we know. We do not know the gods of religions. And nature is not kind, or merciful, or loving. If God made me—the fabled God of the three qualities of which I spoke: mercy, kindness, love—He also made the fish I catch and eat. And where do His mercy, kindness, and love for that fish come in? No; nature made us—nature did it all—not the gods of the religions." - Edison

We jump to conclusions because we do not know God, but God reveals Himself to us, you can choose to know or not. Knowing God makes me a better man.

[Brian]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal Or, in other words, no evidence whatsoever. TC

I am walking evidence.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Brian It adds experience.

The only rational basis for accepting this addition is if it gives us more explanatory value. It does not, however. In fact, we lose some.

TC