Creationism vs. Evolution

[Winter wind]

Quote by: will_00 Yet obviously the universe is wrong. It is a sinful manipulation to make you believe falsely.

The universe can't have an agenda. The universe can't lie. It just is. So why would God tell us what happened, but show us something different?

[Jack]

Quote by: Winter wind I think it's because that would be telling. God never gave any scientific answers, and that's probably because humanity revolves around discovery. And telling us the answer wouldn't be fair.

Can you appreciate how much excuse making is required to justify the actions of your god? Fair? Is your god playing a game with his creation? Is he the wizard of Oz, hiding behind a curtain and forbidding anyone from peaking? What sensible reason would a god have to not share knowledge with those he is said to love? If this god is supposed to be an example for his followers, are they expected to be petty, mean-spirited and mislead those they love?

A much more rational, sensible and practical answer is that there are no gods and nature has its own ways of doing things, some of which we have yet to discern.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: jack Can you appreciate how much excuse making is required to justify the actions of your god?

Believe it or not yes. But I think it isn't illogical. To me, life is a puzzle more then anything. I don't want someone reading me the answer before I figure it out. It's no fun like that.

See, there is a single fact I know is true. God exists. The rest is just explaining how that could be possible. It's hard for you to understand because your stance is God doesn't exist, so what I say looks...well dumb to say the least.

Is your god playing a game with his creation?

I would :)

What sensible reason would a god have to not share knowledge with those he is said to love?

I'm not telling the answer to a sudoku puzzle until the person is done with it.

A much more rational, sensible and practical answer is that there are no gods and nature has its own ways of doing things, some of which we have yet to discern.

Then maybe God just works within the nature, and doesn't break the rules of nature often.

I'm not claiming to know anything for certain.

[Will_00]

This is the "philosophy" we use to do everything, especially in making decisions.

No. Not if you are a Christian.

Fine. Can you manage to explain why and about what?

Do you care to explain?

Where's the physical evidence that supports your opinion? Do you have anything to back up your statements?

Yes, based upon The Bible, human history has been traced back 10,000 years.

What images pop into your head at the words "formless and empty" a blob or a non-existent object.

It doesn't even matter, we have already established that it has been 6 days for creation.

So why would God tell us what happened, but show us something different?

No, it is evil that decieves you.

Is your god playing a game with his creation?

God created us to be with Him.

What sensible reason would a god have to not share knowledge with those he is said to love?

He Gave The Word of God in The Holy Bible.

A much more rational, sensible and practical answer is that there are no gods and nature has its own ways of doing things, some of which we have yet to discern.

But that is simply a deceived version. What evil wants you to believe.

Then maybe God just works within the nature, and doesn't break the rules of nature often.

He is Super Natural.

[Halofan48]

Again will, you have provided NO EVIDENCE!

[Jack]

Quote by: Will_00 Do you care to explain?

Questions in answer to questions are usually indicative of evasion or reading comprehension deficits. I'll make one more effort to believe that this is just a matter of not knowing how to read back in the thread and answer your own question.

You said, "Yet I do not agree with you" to which I responded, "Fine. Can you manage to explain why and about what?"

So, rather than just stating you don't agree with me (useless, since I already know that), to debate properly you must articulate, expand on, explain what you don't agree with me about and why you don't.

It doesn't even matter, we have already established that it has been 6 days for creation.

No, we haven't. You have, and apparently for no good reason. How does the Biblical creation story account for physical evidence to the contrary?

No, it is evil that decieves you.

This doesn't answer or address the question asked.

God created us to be with Him.

This doesn't answer or address the question.

He Gave The Word of God in The Holy Bible.

This doesn't answer or address the question.

But that is simply a deceived version. What evil wants you to believe.

Says who?
I didn't realize "evil" had desires and agendas. Did you mean Satan? I don't believe in him, either. Do you have a better rebuttal?

He is Super Natural.

How does that relate to the statement you quoted? How does being supernatural exclude the ability to act naturally?

[Hurt]

Quote by: Will_00 No. Not if you are a Christian. Do you care to explain? Yes, based upon The Bible, human history has been traced back 10,000 years. It doesn't even matter, we have already established that it has been 6 days for creation. No, it is evil that decieves you. God created us to be with Him. He Gave The Word of God in The Holy Bible. But that is simply a deceived version. What evil wants you to believe. He is Super Natural.

Then answer me this question, would you walk off a bridge? Fully knowing that you would plunge to your death? Of course we live by this philosophy. It's the reason why we are careful when doing dangerous things and never do anything without reason.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: will_00 It doesn't even matter, we have already established that it has been 6 days for creation.

You and Jack may have, but not me.

It isn't against the Bible to say the first day was not 24 hours long. It never says 24 hours nor would it make sense to. Why would God create the time frame for a day before making the definition of a day?

Plus, Jesus spoke using many allegories and metaphors, why is it impossible that this isn't one?

No, it is evil that decieves you.

But I've seen the universe expand. I've seen the data and it makes sense. I've heard the Big bang over a radio. Physics has predicted the existence of objects before finding them. It makes sense, it isn't a lie as far as humanity is concerned. I mean humanity didn't make all this up.

If you mean the devil is faking the evidence...why? It won't change the fact God exists. It asks us to be smarter as opposed to stupider. to look for more then shut our eyes to the universe around us. Isn't that something God would do and not the devil?

[Tycoon]

It isn't against the Bible to say the first day was not 24 hours long. It never says 24 hours nor would it make sense to. Why would God create the time frame for a day before making the definition of a day?

The story even says that God created day and night before he created the Sun and the stars in the sky. None of it makes sense.

Plus, Jesus spoke using many allegories and metaphors, why is it impossible that this isn't one?

There's no reason you can't say that. But isn't it much more likely that it's simply a story designed to answer questions that couldn't be answered at the time of their origin?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: tycoon The story even says that God created day and night before he created the Sun and the stars in the sky. None of it makes sense.

God is playing mind games with us :)

My theory is that when fully understand the universe (maybe never) the meaning of Genesis will be clear.

But isn't it much more likely that it's simply a story designed to answer questions that couldn't be answered at the time of their origin?

Call me old fashion, but I think there was divine influence on the Bible. God wrote it through humans, but he did do it through humans. So the Bible might not have caught on the way he intended if he wrote something like "in the beginning God created matter and antimatter." See, what God did write though that he created light and darkness. Not that much of a jump.

[gallo]

Quote by: Winter wind God is playing mind games with us :) My theory is that when fully understand the universe (maybe never) the meaning of Genesis will be clear.

My theory is that it is the mythology of bronze age, nomadic herdsmen that someone wrote down. In fact, there is more than one mythology mixed together. One Bible comentary states that the first 5 books of the Bible are the "...complex joining of several historical traditions." Note that it is the traditions that are historical, not the mythology contained in those traditions. There are primarily four traditions that Bible scholars recognize: Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly, and Deuteronomic. At least the first two can be distinguished by how they refer to God. Yahweh or Elohim. And of course, as is clear from an analysis of the text, Genesis cannot be attributed to a single author. Genesis reflects at least the Yahwist (J), Elohist (E), and Priestly (P) traditions of oral mythology. These traditions are all intertwined in Genesis even to the extent that the narative becomes confused if it is interpreted as historical. For example, there are two different and conflicting stories of creation that cannot be reconciled. There are also the mixed recounts of Noah's story in which it isn't clear whether there were two of each kind or seven of some kinds, and whether that 7 was the total or whether it was seven pairs. Further, the story of Noah seems to have been derived from the myth of Utnapishtim from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. It is accepted that Abraham came from Ur, a city in Sumer.

Call me old fashion, but I think there was divine influence on the Bible. God wrote it through humans, but he did do it through humans. So the Bible might not have caught on the way he intended if he wrote something like "in the beginning God created matter and antimatter." See, what God did write though that he created light and darkness. Not that much of a jump.

So, in your view, god is weak and imperfect and things don't turn out the way he wants them to. And you call a magical being like that god?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: gallo So, in your view, god is weak and imperfect and things don't turn out the way he wants them to. And you call a magical being like that god?

What, where did I say that? I only said humans were imperfect.

If you were in God's position, what would you do to get the most attention short of magic tricks?

[Halofan48]

Yell at the entire world saying "I EXIST, **** IT!"

[Winter wind]

Yell at the entire world saying "I EXIST, **** IT!"

Then we'd all write it down and people in the future would tell us that we were crazy.

[gallo]

Quote by: Winter wind What, where did I say that? I only said humans were imperfect.

No. You said that the Bible didn't "catch on" the way god intended. That implies a rather weak and imprefect god. Maybe that explains the really crap engineering job on some of his creatures.

If you were in God's position, what would you do to get the most attention short of magic tricks?

It has nothing to do with me. Creationists already tell us that it all happened by magic. It's the ultimate answer to questions that creationists can't answer, "goddidit."

[Winter wind]

Quote by: gallo No. You said that the Bible didn't "catch on" the way god intended. That implies a rather weak and imprefect god. Maybe that explains the really crap engineering job on some of his creatures.

Actually I said
"So the Bible might not have caught on the way he intended if he wrote something like..."

He predicted that it wouldn't have caught on and therefore chose another plan of action. Why is that a faulty analyzes?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

It has nothing to do with me. Creationists already tell us that it all happened by magic. It's the ultimate answer to questions that creationists can't answer, "goddidit."

My question was: what did you expect? Pretend you're God's PR man. What would you advise him to do? What would be the way you got the word out? I just think if you go through this hypothetical, you will see your answer isn't too different then the one recorded in the Bible and present day.

It's just for fun. Bare with me.

[gallo]

Quote by: Winter wind Actually I said "So the Bible might not have caught on the way he intended if he wrote something like..."

And so your god can "intend" how things should go and they don't go that way. A weak god. You don't seem to see the problem with that. Theologians have worried about that for some time. How can free will exist if God is all powerful. Some decided that everything was predetermined by God before the creation. Thus, before anyone is born, God has decided whether they will be eternally happy in heaven or whether He will torture them for eternity. And yet, somehow, these people also fit in the concept of salvation by Jesus.

He predicted that it wouldn't have caught on and therefore chose another plan of action. Why is that a faulty analyzes?

So your god is nothing more than a prognosticator who is sometimes wrong, who actually analyzes, thinks, plans, chooses, etc. That's not an all powerful god.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

No problem. Nobody is ever "clear enough" when it comes to inventing magical beings.

My question was: what did you expect? Pretend you're God's PR man. What would you advise him to do? What would be the way you got the word out? I just think if you go through this hypothetical, you will see your answer isn't too different then the one recorded in the Bible and present day.

Why would I want to be a PR man for a mythical being? Why would I want to convince people to accept without any reason to do so? Why would I encourage them to stop thinking for themselves and accept magic as the answer?

It's just for fun. Bare with me.

I'm keeping my clothes on. You do what you want.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: gallo And so your god can "intend" how things should go and they don't go that way.

Again, I don't think I'm being clear enough.

God sees that if he does X...Y will not happen.
There fore he does Z to accomplish Z.

That's different from doing X and incorrectly thinking Y will happen.

So your god is nothing more than a prognosticator who is sometimes wrong, who actually analyzes, thinks, plans, chooses, etc. That's not an all powerful god.

So planing ahead = being sometimes wrong.

Help, because I'm missing something.

No problem. Nobody is ever "clear enough" when it comes to inventing magical beings.

Hehe, fair enough.

Why would I want to be a PR man for a mythical being? Why would I want to convince people to accept without any reason to do so? Why would I encourage them to stop thinking for themselves and accept magic as the answer?

What if he were real. Pretend he were.

You'll find that your answer may not be too different from God's.

It would explain why he's more subtle.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Winter wind Again, I don't think I'm being clear enough. God sees that if he does X...Y will not happen. There fore he does Z to accomplish Z. That's different from doing X and incorrectly thinking Y will happen. So planing ahead = being sometimes wrong. Help, because I'm missing something. Hehe, fair enough. What if he were real. Pretend he were. You'll find that your answer may not be too different from God's. It would explain why he's more subtle.

I concede part of your point. Assuming there is a God and he feels like being subtle, well, he'll be the subtlest thing possible and us humans will have no idea.

Harry Potter could be nonfiction too. The Ministry of Magic would have its hands full trying to keep Hogwarts off of satellite imaging systems and preventing Muggles from leaning against a certain pillar in Kings Cross, but they're a determined bunch of wizards and I'm sure they would find a way. Proving the impossibility of disproving a conjecture does not equal proof of that conjecture. Barring unforseen mental gymnastics, I believe this line of argument has just come to a dead end.

[gallo]

Quote by: Winter wind Again, I don't think I'm being clear enough. God sees that if he does X...Y will not happen. There fore he does Z to accomplish Z. That's different from doing X and incorrEctly thinking Y will happen.

That doesn't make sense. The point is that if god is all powerful then nothing can happen without his will and everything that he wills happens.

So planing ahead = being sometimes wrong. Help, because I'm missing something.

No. Planning ahead means imperfect. Planning is a process and implies change. Something that can change is not perfect. Only in weak theologies is god changeable. If you ascribe thought, planning, design or any other human processes to god, they you are talking about a fiction of humans.

What if he were real. Pretend he were. You'll find that your answer may not be too different from God's. It would explain why he's more subtle.

I would not accept the job as PR man for some god. There is nothing to offer anyone in support of the existance of such a being.