Creationism vs. Evolution

[Jack]

Genesis 1:
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Yeah, we've noticed he supposed created days on day one but nothing that determines day and night until day 4. Quite the trick.

[Jack]

You have to bend over backward to make allowances for the obvious nonsense in the creation story. At some point that gets old, and common sense tells you that reality offers a much simpler explanation.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: jack There was no 24 hour day before the Earth was formed unless it was on another planet that had a 24 hour (based on our measurement of time) rotational period. Even when we talk about the universe being so many billions of years old, we're using our measurements based on our planet. Time is relative. The definitions and divisions of time even more so.

A three way debate. It crazy in a good way :)

anyhoo. Your using talking about humans in this argument. God created the universe, so he probably has his own system of measurement that is different from our own (that is based on the earth).

Also, the Bible is filled with allegories and metaphors, so why is it so hard to believe this is one of them?

[Jack]

Quote by: Winter wind And yet the earth and sun were not created until much later. This passage sounds eerily familiar to the Big Bang. So what's to say that days and nights lasted longer before there was an earth to rotate on it's axis once every 24 ish hours?

Because what we call day and night only exist in relation to the Earth's rotation around our Sun. We invented days, weeks, months, hours and seconds all based on our planet's rotation. Those same conditions don't exist any where else we know of in the universe.

Imagine an alien race traveling through space. Several generations are born while in space. They would have no concept of time based on the rotation of a planet around a sun. They'd either follow the conventions handed down to them, as we have, or invent another method of tracking time, if they even appreciated the passing of time like we do.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Will_00 Obviously this is a manipulation of the Truth. "31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." Genesis 1:31

Wait, what does this have to do with what I said?

Quote by: Will_00 God would not have "manipulated" the day to make it a million years old. As well, it was written for us.

hah. It's not manipulation. It's logical. Without a sun or an earth, the very definition of a day doesn't exist. Why would he use that measurement to define how long he took to make the world? It doesn't make sense the other way. He created us to be local so it is a possibility.

Quote by: jack Yeah, we've noticed he supposed created days on day one but nothing that determines day and night until day 4. Quite the trick.

That's why it's a logical deduction to think he is talking about the Big Bang. The light comes before our planet.

[Will_00]

Yeah, we've noticed he supposed created days on day one but nothing that determines day and night until day 4. Quite the trick.

"5God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." Genesis 1:5

At some point that gets old, and common sense tells you that reality offers a much simpler explanation.

But "common sense" is not even common sense in this case. It is a sinful attempt to reach a conclusion.

Your using talking about humans in this argument. God created the universe, so he probably has his own system of measurement that is different from our own (that is based on the earth).

Again, God Created The Bible for Us. He would not change it to make it so days were edited in out sense.

Also, the Bible is filled with allegories and metaphors, so why is it so hard to believe this is one of them?

The beginning of the Bible was obviously not one huge metaphore. It is obviously literal.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: jack Imagine an alien race traveling through space. Several generations are born while in space. They would have no concept of time based on the rotation of a planet around a sun. They'd either follow the conventions handed down to them, as we have, or invent another method of tracking time, if they even appreciated the passing of time like we do.

But humans didn't create the earth, God did. So he could be using his own measurement.

[Jack]

Also, the Bible is filled with allegories and metaphors, so why is it so hard to believe this is one of them?

Because when it's convenient to their argument, Christians use the same conventions everyone else does. It's only when certain passages are challenged they revert to claiming "god's time is not our time". I know of no passage from the Bible that states how god supposedly measures time. The only passages that allude to that were penned by men trying to cover the glaring inaccuracies of the creation story. Those passages make the excuse that to god a day is as a thousand years, but that would mean that god measures time using the same scale we do. That's obviously nonsense in that he supposedly performed acts on certain "days" before he got around to creating the mechanisms that delineate days and nights.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: will_00 Again, God Created The Bible for Us. He would not change it to make it so days were edited in out sense.

except it doesn't make sense. The universe tells us that it wasn't created in seven days. Things have been flying from a point for longer then seven days before the earth's creation. Along with the idea that we have "heard" the big bang over a radio, this doesn't make sense at all.

[Will_00]

Why would he use that measurement to define how long he took to make the world? It doesn't make sense the other way. He created us to be local so it is a possibility.

No, he seperated the light from the darkness.

That's why it's a logical deduction to think he is talking about the Big Bang. The light comes before our planet.

Obviously this would not be true. The Bible is giving a detailed description of what happened. There would be completely different descriptions if that was such. And it states: "2Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2 Before verse 3, it states that the earth already existed.

[Will_00]

The universe tells us that it wasn't created in seven days.

Yet obviously the universe is wrong. It is a sinful manipulation to make you believe falsely.

[Jack]

Quote by: Will_00 "5God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." Genesis 1:5

You're repeating yourself for nothing. That passage is irrelevant to the debate.

But "common sense" is not even common sense in this case. It is a sinful attempt to reach a conclusion.

According only to your philosophy, which I don't share or acknowledge as valid.

Again, God Created The Bible for Us. He would not change it to make it so days were edited in out sense.

I have no idea what the second sentence is supposed to be saying, but the first is a presumption, not established fact. No one has established irrefutably that there's a god or that if he existed that he created the Bible. Establish the first premise before using it to try and establish a further premise.

The beginning of the Bible was obviously not one huge metaphore. It is obviously literal.

So says you. Not everyone agrees, even amongst your fellow believers.

[Jack]

Quote by: Will_00 Yet obviously the universe is wrong. It is a sinful manipulation to make you believe falsely.

If it's so obvious, then explain how the universe is "wrong". Wrong about what? Do you understand cosmology enough to debate this? I may not at some point; be forewarned.

[Will_00]

According only to your philosophy, which I don't share or acknowledge as valid.

Yet I do not accept your "philosophy."

No one has established irrefutably that there's a god or that if he existed that he created the Bible. Establish the first premise before using it to try and establish a further premise.

No one has ever given full "proof" for the absence of the existence of God. It is impossible.

Not everyone agrees, even amongst your fellow believers.

Yet I do not agree with you.

[Will_00]

Wrong about what?

It is wrong about saying that the Universe has been existent for billions of years.

[Hurt]

Quote by: Will_00 Yet I do not accept your "philosophy." No one has ever given full "proof" for the absence of the existence of God. It is impossible. Yet I do not agree with you.

I'm sure you employ logic in your life, Will. Everyone does. Everyone tries to do what is "right" based on what is given to them. We do things for reasons; no one does something that would hurt them if not for a good reason. Thus, this is quite the universal "philosophy". This is the "philosophy" we use to do everything, especially in making decisions.

Now, your philosophy, deviates from that standard. I believe that's his point?

[Jack]

Quote by: Will_00 No one has ever given full "proof" for the absence of the existence of God. It is impossible.

Not only impossible but unnecessary. No one is obliged to disprove every nonsensical suggestion put forth from the human imagination. Prove to me that leprechauns don't exist. Or do you believe in leprechauns?

Yet I do not agree with you.

Fine. Can you manage to explain why and about what?

[Jack]

Quote by: Will_00 It is wrong about saying that the Universe has been existent for billions of years.

What makes you believe otherwise? Where's the physical evidence that supports your opinion? Do you have anything to back up your statements?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: jack Because when it's convenient to their argument, Christians use the same conventions everyone else does. It's only when certain passages are challenged they revert to claiming "god's time is not our time". I know of no passage from the Bible that states how god supposedly measures time.

well, in no other passage does the earth and sun not exist yet.

Quote by: jack The only passages that allude to that were penned by men trying to cover the glaring inaccuracies of the creation story. Those passages make the excuse that to god a day is as a thousand years, but that would mean that god measures time using the same scale we do. That's obviously nonsense in that he supposedly performed acts on certain "days" before he got around to creating the mechanisms that delineate days and nights.

I think it's because that would be telling. God never gave any scientific answers, and that's probably because humanity revolves around discovery. And telling us the answer wouldn't be fair.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: will_00 Obviously this would not be true. The Bible is giving a detailed description of what happened. There would be completely different descriptions if that was such. And it states: "2Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2 Before verse 3, it states that the earth already existed.

What images pop into your head at the words "formless and empty"

a blob or a non-existent object.