The Scientific Evidence for the Spiritual

[Meleagar]

I see little to no difference in the world should verification of such knowledge happen. .

The world used to believe that illness, crop failure, plague, etc. was the product of spiritual factors; did it change the world to pursue scientific understanding of such things? The world used to believe that the mind was a spiritual device, and that mental illnesses were caused by spiritual entities; did it have any effect in the world to pursue such spiritual things scientifically? When Newton believed that a spiritual god governed the universe through universal, fundamental laws (laws which are only described by physics, but the souce of which might as well be spiritual) - did the world not notice his discoveries?

I'm not sure why one would put this pursuit into the category as "would have no effect" when the pursuit of understanding of what was once called (and often still is) spiritual phenomena has changed the world so much in the past.

If the afterlife is found to be simply another kind of existence, and consciousness and identity to be, say, quantum lattices cohered by "material" much finer than our instrumentation can currently examine; and this afterlife was found, say, to not conform to the rules of most traditional religions, but rather operated from a different set of governing principles ... you believe that if this sort of information became publically accepted as factually evidenced by science, it wouldn't dramatically affect the course of the world over several generations?

To me, that is the same as saying that no science, nor any religion, has ever meaningfully affected the course of human history, because this would be the most dramatic scientific and religious discovery in the history of humanity, IMO.

A scientific means of examining the spiritual and interacting with those in the afterlife and gathering verifiable, information about it? No effect on human history? Wow.

[grandpa]

The world used to believe that illness, crop failure, plague,
etc. was the product of spiritual factors; did it change
the world to pursue scientific understanding of such things?
The world used to believe that the mind was a
spiritual device, and that mental illnesses were caused by spiritual
entities; did it have any effect in the world to
pursue such spiritual things scientifically?

Health and medicine have come a long way through the scientific method, yes.

I would add:
A rational human being cannot fully understand what is used within the temporal world, let alone some so-called "spiritual" one. Nonetheless, reality works for me to help envision the motives of spiritualists. I cannot fully know anyone's motives, including my own, but I can come pretty close sometimes, even when certain logic has been removed from things I am trying to comprehend.

Grandpa h.

[minorwork]

The world used to believe that illness, crop failure, plague, etc. was the product of spiritual factors; did it change the world to pursue scientific understanding of such things? The world used to believe that the mind was a spiritual device, and that mental illnesses were caused by spiritual entities; did it have any effect in the world to pursue such spiritual things scientifically? When Newton believed that a spiritual god governed the universe through universal, fundamental laws (laws which are only described by physics, but the source of which might as well be spiritual) - did the world not notice his discoveries?

I'm not sure why one would put this pursuit into the category as "would have no effect" when the pursuit of understanding of what was once called (and often still is) spiritual phenomena has changed the world so much in the past.

I've not been clear. I'm in total agreement that the pursuit of a scientific verification of spiritual existence beyond the physical is a good thing. Push on. 'Tis the verification of it that is problematic. At least Popper has shown that it is not verification that is meaningful but that, to be meaningful, the knowledge under examination must be able to be falsified. Progress. Falsification applies to individual examinations of the inner worlds.

Do you not see problems with the establishment of a "normal" individual by spiritual/psychological science? Investigate the history of forced sterilization. And here: Based on a true story from 1928, "Changeling" the consequences of authoritarian verification of psychological norms is shown when, for political reasons, the heroine is pronounced delusional.

If the afterlife is found to be simply another kind of existence, and consciousness and identity to be, say, quantum lattices cohered by "material" much finer than our instrumentation can currently examine; and this afterlife was found, say, to not conform to the rules of most traditional religions, but rather operated from a different set of governing principles ... you believe that if this sort of information became publicly accepted as factually evidenced by science, it wouldn't dramatically affect the course of the world over several generations?

The public, on an individual basis, already has the opportunity to confirm existence independent of the body by traveling the, much larger than the physical, spiritual worlds. Do you think the public would be any more accepting given an endorsement of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) ?

To me, that is the same as saying that no science, nor any religion, has ever meaningfully affected the course of human history, because this would be the most dramatic scientific and religious discovery in the history of humanity, IMO

My lack of clarity again. 'Tis the pursuit of the goals of science and religion that has such clear effect. Religion and science are tools in the endeavor against pain, suffering, and early death.

A scientific means of examining the spiritual and interacting with those in the afterlife and gathering verifiable, information about it? No effect on human history? Wow.[/quote]Not my intention to lead you to that conclusion. I fear a negative effect on human history. The most dramatic discoveries can have negative consequences. Is that not true?

New York Times Headline. HELL EXISTS.
Killing machines, ordered thru war department contracts, have been designed and successful tested in a pilot study of a small prototype certification model. Production of full scale machines will begin later this week. This has been delayed due to unruly crowds storming the site of the pilot plant near Rachel, Nevada. Security was challenged at the site when 100,000 applicants arrived seeking to be one of the 250 volunteers needed for the device's test certification. Two companies of National Guardsmen was airlifted to the site and restored order. Unconfirmed reports have come in that the 100,000 volunteers were prematurely terminated leaving only the guardsmen as available test subjects. A video of the remaining guardsmen standing on conveyor belts and electric arc terminations are available on YouDude. The video is a copy. The original is part of the verification records needed for certification. Scientists in the video can be heard expressing their pleasure at the apparent successful demonstration. Four conveyor belts in a cross configuration, move toward the center of the cross where an overhead circular structure provides the positive electrodes and meet at the toward the center of the device where a large electric arc annhilates the naked volunteers.

The order for full production was signed last week by President Santorum. A consensus of scientists has confirmed computer simulations that death is the inevitable gateway to a hell that becomes progressively worse proportionate to the increase in age of the person at death. This good news has dramatically unified the planet by finally answering the age old question: Where are we going?

Scientists have confirmed the most desirable death strategy is to that of avoiding loneliness and distance from others in Hell. This is accomplished by simultaneous deaths. The nearer the time of death to another determines proximity to each other in Hell. Lone suicides are discouraged due to the lack of companionship throughout eternity.

Please refrain from taking your own life or your spouse's at the same time. The machines are in production. In a months time, the means to kill 1 million will be in place and will ensure you are not stuck with only your spouse for company for all eternity.

Praise the Final Solution and its prophets from the AAAS. Have a nice day!

[Meleagar]

Minorwork,

I appreciate that there is reasonable concern over the misuse of such research and the results; however, that is really irrelevant to the point of the thread, which is that there is scientific evidence of the existence of supernatural phenomena, contrary to the oft-repeated truism that no such evidence exists.

[SoylentGreen]

Minorwork,

I appreciate that there is reasonable concern over the misuse of such research and the results; however, that is really irrelevant to the point of the thread, which is that there is scientific evidence of the existence of supernatural phenomena, contrary to the oft-repeated truism that no such evidence exists.

Please point specifically to the part that says there is scientific evidence.

All you have done so far is show that not all that are investigating the matter are charlatans. You have yet to show where they found evidence.

[minorwork]

Minorwork,

I appreciate that there is reasonable concern over the misuse of such research and the results; however, that is really irrelevant to the point of the thread, which is that there is scientific evidence of the existence of supernatural phenomena, contrary to the oft-repeated truism that no such evidence exists.

Sure. But no comment on my fictitious newspaper headline? My story was invented on the fly based on the theme from a short story written by Larry Niven in one of the 26 tales. The Draco Tavern called "The Subject is Closed"
"The Subject Is Closed": A priest visits the tavern and goes one-on-one with a chirpsithra alien on the subject of God and life after death.
OK. I won't quit my day job.

Over a year ago at physics forum I posted several times at the science of visions thread. I've got some more examples of what a poster deemed scientific evidence of the "paranormal." Here they be. Over a hundred references all together. More than you. I win. But no kidding aren't these all just evidence of possibilities scientific or otherwise? There was a big deal made over cold fusion too.

I've seen no aid for humanity in any of these. No, I've not investigated all of them. I think Radin has tried and failed though some swear he has something. I think there is too much noise to detect any consistent reliable pattern amenable to explanation and prediction so far.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

PubMed Home

PubMed Home

Dean Radin - Entangled Minds Bibliography

PA Convention Proceedings

PEAR - Publications

[Meleagar]

Minorwork,

I can invent similar convenient storylines that are positive in nature. I salute your talent at writing, being something of a writer myself.

Evidence becomes proof if it convinces someone. I suggest that scientific evidence such as that which you and I have posted can help in convincing some people.

Whether for good or bad ends, who is to say? What good invention or discovery cannot be interpreted or used towards "bad" ends?

[minorwork]

Minorwork,

I can invent similar convenient storylines that are positive in nature. I salute your talent at writing, being something of a writer myself.

One story does not make this retireded coal miner a writer. Being paid for it will.That would be nice. Won't happen. I don't get inspired writing to no one, seems only in individual conversation that the fire gets lit.

Evidence becomes proof if it convinces someone. I suggest that scientific evidence such as that which you and I have posted can help in convincing some people.

I don't believe for a second that the references are convincing evidence. Maybe for some though. It is the wrong approach. I did get that across didn't I? Let me know one way or the other because that is the theme I'm presenting.

It is anathema to your goals that the worlds of spirit be capable of being falsified in the physical by empirical, scientific methods. My position is that the kind of proof you seek would be counter productive to personal freedom and spiritual liberation. The stated goals. The situation is described in the tale of Lazarus and the rich man. The last verse expresses well the results of my experiences in the endeavor of attempting to prove and/or persuade another of the existence of the spiritual situation via science.
31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Whether for good or bad ends, who is to say? What good invention or discovery cannot be interpreted or used towards "bad" ends?

What concerns me is bringing a soul to realizing itself and then realizing itself as God in as gentle a manner as I can. Yet, in spite of my efforts, sometimes, the realizations come hard. Science is a crude invention of the mind deriving its power from minor accomplishments in the physical world.

[GeminiBrian]

What concerns me is bringing a soul to realizing itself and then realizing itself as God in as gentle a manner as I can. Yet, in spite of my efforts, sometimes, the realizations come hard. Science is a crude invention of the mind deriving its power from minor accomplishments in the physical world.

Sorry to butt in on such an interesting exchange if views, gut I can't let that last paragraph go unchallenged, minor... I can't see how you can say that science is a "crude invention" - and I strongly disagree.

You are well-read - so how did you possibly come to that conclusion?

I'm not a trained scientist, but I love to read up to the level of my comprehension on all things scientific: this has led to me having a keen appreciation of the many beauties to be found in the world of science, and I am constantly amazed by the sheer depth of scientific understanding, and the subtlety of the ways it makes its deductions.

I'm truly sorry if all this escapes you - even the traditional demarcations between metaphysics and science are rapidly breaking down - and thus I'm beginning to see science as the most exciting path to the spiritual as we are likely to find.

I would even go as far as to say that if there is a 'god' in any sense 'it' will turn out to be the greatest scientist imaginable.

[Judicator]

IEEE Xplore - Login

Summary: Beginning in the 1850s, some eminent scientists such as Robert Hare, Alfred Russel Wallace, and Sir William Crookes investigated the claims of spiritualist mediums and believed that they had demonstrated scientifically the existence of psychic phenomena. Critics, without examining the evidence, dismissed the claims out of hand and charged the offending scientists with gross incompetence or with fraud. Encouraged by the work of these early psychical researchers, a group of scholars founded the Society for Psychical Research in London in 1882. In spite of this beginning, psychical research remained an amateur and uncoordinated set of activities until the publication of Rhine's Extra-Sensory Perception in 1934. The card-guessing experiments featured in Rhine's book became the model for experimental parapsychology for the next 40 years. Since the 1970s Rhine's paradigm has been replaced by a number of research programs such as remote viewing, the-Ganzfield experiment, and psychokinetic investigations using Random Event Generators. The present paper examines examples of what were considered, in their time, the best examples of scientific evidence for paranormal phenomena. Each generation of para-psychologists has set aside the work of earlier generations and offered up as sufficient scientific evidence the best work of its own day. As a result, parapsychology lacks not only lawful and replicable phenomena, but also a tradition of cumulative evidence. Two systematic evaluations of the best contemporary research programs in parapsychology revealed that the experiments departed from the minimal standards of adequate randomization of targets, appropriate use of statistical inference, and controls against sensory leakage. The historical survey in this paper suggests that the same themes and inadequacies that haunted the very earliest investigations still characterize contemporary parapsychological research. Both proponents and critics throughout the 130 years of the controversy over psychical research, have deviated greatly from those standards of fair-play and rationality that we would like to believe characterizes the best scientific arguments. Some encouraging signs for progress towards resolving some of the issues raised by the controversy have recently appeared- . The criticism of the parapsychological claims is becoming more informed and constructive. Many younger parapsychologists have been working for higher standards within their field. The best lines of systematic research in parapsychology are not of sufficient quality to be put before the scrutiny of the rest of the scientific community. However, with the recent increase in constructive criticism and with the growing awareness within the parapsychological community that it needs to specify minimal standards and set its own house in order, there is hope that in the near future either the parapsychologists will fail to find evidence for psi or will be ready to challenge the scientific community with the sort of evidence that it cannot ignore.

[GeminiBrian]

Summary: Beginning in the 1850s, some eminent scientists such as Robert Hare, Alfred Russel Wallace, and Sir William Crookes investigated the claims of spiritualist mediums and believed that they had demonstrated scientifically the existence of psychic phenomena... (my edit)

(paragraphs were invented for a good reason, J.).

James Randi, a.k.a. The Amazing Randi, magician and author of numerous works skeptical of paranormal, supernatural, and pseudoscientific claims has for about ten years offered "a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power." His rules were little more than what any reasonable scientist would require. If you are a mental spoon bender, you couldn't use your own spoons. If you claimed to see auras, you'd have to do so under controlled conditions. If you claimed to be able to do remote viewing, you wouldn't be given credit for coming close in some vague way. If you were going to demonstrate dowsing powers, you would have to be prepared to be tested under controlled conditions. If you were going to do psychic surgery or experience the stigmata, you would have to do so with cameras watching your every move... read more below

Randi $1,000,000 paranormal challenge - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

[Meleagar]

It is anathema to your goals that the worlds of spirit be capable of being falsified in the physical by empirical, scientific methods.

You must have me confused with someone else. My beliefs don't require any evidence whatsoever, much less "proof". They can hardly be "disproven".

My position is that the kind of proof you seek would be counter productive to personal freedom and spiritual liberation.

I'm not seeking proof. I'm providing evidence. You are sssuming motivations that I do not actually have.

What concerns me is bringing a soul to realizing itself and then realizing itself as God in as gentle a manner as I can. Yet, in spite of my efforts, sometimes, the realizations come hard. Science is a crude invention of the mind deriving its power from minor accomplishments in the physical world.

I think the difference between us, and how we see this evidence, is that you're concerned with doing good for others, while I'm concerned with enjoying my life.