1 question that should convince you of mental differences among races...

[RealRockingham]

OK, I get the idea that my former "90 facts" thread might have been too extensive, in that 90 facts were too many for people to give a damn about. So let me challenge you with just one question:

Given that all living humans are all descended from an initial "prototype" of human, that is a single race, and given that such significant differences are emerged among humans in physical terms through the process of evolution, how can such differences not also have emerged in mental capacities as part of the process of evolution?

[Walrus]

Interesting, but I don’t see much evolutionary divergence. I suppose the fact that white people have pale skins and thin lips, as do most apes, may place them further down the evolutionary scale, but I doubt it.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Walrus Interesting, but I don’t see much evolutionary divergence. I suppose the fact that white people have pale skins and thin lips, as do most apes, may place them further down the evolutionary scale, but I doubt it.

If the claim is, "Different cultures have different levels of intelligence," I can't argue
with that. But racial differences are quite another thing.
Intellectually speaking, the ascension of certain white people to power in America has been terrible, and it's been leading to an even less literate generation. I'm not saying it's because they are white, and that's essentially my point. In order to create an intelligent society, people have to be interested in creating an intelligent culture. It's not a racial question so much as it is a societal one.

Grandpa h.

[tinybear]

I think it's plausible that mental capacities might have evolved differently for different races. I also think that the physically stronger races may well have correspondingly smaller mental capacities than the others.

[Jinei]

Quote by: RealRockingham OK, I get the idea that my former "90 facts" thread might have been too extensive, in that 90 facts were too many for people to give a damn about. So let me challenge you with just one question: Given that all living humans are all descended from an initial "prototype" of human, that is a single race, and given that such significant differences are emerged among humans in physical terms through the process of evolution, how can such differences not also have emerged in mental capacities as part of the process of evolution?

There is a great deal of variation within a racial group, but between them, there is hardly any variation at all, ignoring physical appearance. Ever since the 1800's people have been trying to show, with craniometry, that European males' brains were larger than all other races or that the forward part of the corpus callosum was at least larger in white males than in all other races. All failed. There is no difference between the brains of different races.

As for evolving different intelligence, no. Every race on Earth has had its Nomadic history of hunting and gathering. That's all it took to cap off the enormous intelligence our species had already evolved having freed up their hands for tinkering, fixing, probing, exploring, and making. There's no particular hardship that the descendants of Whites had to go through alone, at least to my knowledge, that led to an evolutionary increase in intelligence. And perhaps the only thing that historically sets Whites apart from anyone else are their social inventions that epitomize civilization. Having been around for no more than 10,000 years, civilization is hardly a catalyst for increased intelligence in a brain that took more than 7,000 times longer to evolve.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Jinei There is a great deal of variation within a racial group, but between them, there is hardly any variation at all, ignoring physical appearance. Ever since the 1800's people have been trying to show, with craniometry, that European males' brains were larger than all other races or that the forward part of the corpus callosum was at least larger in white males than in all other races.

And, failing in their quest, they still argue that skin coloration determines intelligence. In other words, their research methods are probably not going to be unbiased. Unfortunately, many whites are marginalising the other
races still.

Grandpa h.

[Morality Games]

Given that all living humans are all descended from an initial "prototype" of human, that is a single race, and given that such significant differences are emerged among humans in physical terms through the process of evolution, how can such differences not also have emerged in mental capacities as part of the process of evolution?

Because whatever part of our neurophysiology enables our high intelligence was most likely one of the synapamorphies (defining traits) of that prototype human, whereas skin color and minor muscle adjustments have more to do with the geographic configuration of one's environment -- intelligence is advantageous in all environments.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: Walrus Interesting, but I don’t see much evolutionary divergence. I suppose the fact that white people have pale skins and thin lips, as do most apes, may place them further down the evolutionary scale, but I doubt it.

You significantly understate evolutionary divergence in physical terms... if you have seen an Albino African, you know the physical differences are far less then trivial. Here is a link to an image of an Albino African(you have to scroll down a bit)
Lighter eyes means lighter skin? « Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.

VARIATIONS BETWEEN RACES
-their are variations in height, and you merely have to look at the pygmies of Africa to prove that
-variations in level of melanin(rather unimportant, I know)
-variations in hair(it is possible to tell which race one belongs to based on their hair, though if they are mixed race it complicates things)
-Variations in muscle structure
- Variations in leg structure(Black Africans for example are well known for their leg structure)
-Variations in skull structure- one can easily tell, if they recieve basic training, to what race of human a skull belongs just by looking at it(assuming the skull is not belonging to a person of mixed race, which would complicate things)
-It is possible to detect what race one belongs to based on DNA(assuming they are not mixed race)
-Susceptibility to disease, tolerance for medicines
-Epicanthic folds
-Variations in extent of body hair

I could write plenty of others down. But here is an extensive news article on the subject, to save me writing it here:
American Renaissance News: Race And Physical Differences

Quote by: tinybear I think it's plausible that mental capacities might have evolved differently for different races. I also think that the physically stronger races may well have correspondingly smaller mental capacities than the others.

Yes. You cannot say the the evolutionary pressures that existed on the brains of Australian Aboriginal, Pygmy, Arctic and Caucasoid populations were the same. Certain mental traits would have been selected against and became extremely rare on non-existant in those environments. Even if no NEW genetic traits emerged, the average occurence of the multiple genes which impact personality would be different dependant on the region as part of the process of natural selection.

Quote by: Jinei 1)As for evolving different intelligence, no. Every race on Earth has had its Nomadic history of hunting and gathering. That's all it took to cap off the enormous intelligence our species had already evolved having freed up their hands for tinkering, fixing, probing, exploring, and making. 2)There's no particular hardship that the descendants of Whites had to go through alone, at least to my knowledge, that led to an evolutionary increase in intelligence. 3) And perhaps the only thing that historically sets Whites apart from anyone else are their social inventions that epitomize civilization. 4)Having been around for no more than 10,000 years, civilization is hardly a catalyst for increased intelligence in a brain that took more than 7,000 times longer to evolve.

1)I will repeat myself: You cannot say the the evolutionary pressures that existed on the brains of Australian Aboriginal, Pygmy, Arctic and Caucasoid populations were the same. Certain mental traits would have been selected against and became extremely rare on non-existant in those environments. Even if no NEW genetic traits emerged, the average occurence of the multiple genes which impact mental traits would be different dependant on the region as part of the process of natural selection.

2) Huh? The fact that we have white skin as a reaction to cooler climates is just one example of the fact that the evolutionary pressures on whites were different to those on, for example, Australian Aboriginals. Though you are right that we are not the sole race to have experienced the evolutionary hardship of a cooler climate- the Asian/Oriental/Mongoloid race experienced such pressures as Caucasoids did as well(that is a cooler climate requiring social cooperation), and to a greater extent- which is the reason for their epicanthic fold over the eyes, and in all likelihood also the reason for their superior intelligence and greater predisposition to submit to authority.

3) Umm no, we are not set apart in that. East Asians were resposnible for many achievements as well. The Mayans were actually ahead of the Greeks in terms of Maths and Astronomy. The only races to have contributed or achieved absolutely nothing on their own are Australian Aboriginals and the Capoid race. The Black African race has made some minor acheivements.

4)As previously said, even if civilisation didn't cause any new genetic traits to emerge, it probably affected the ratio at which certain genetic traits occured among populations.

Quote by: Morality Games 1)Because whatever part of our neurophysiology enables our high intelligence was most likely one of the synapamorphies (defining traits) of that prototype human, 2)whereas skin color and minor muscle adjustments have more to do with the geographic configuration of one's environment -- 3)intelligence is advantageous in all environments.

1) Ummm, and? Just because it was a defining trait, doesn't mean further tweaks(or regression) couldn't occur.

After all, the sheer variation in mental capacities of dogs after merely a few thousand years of selective breeding is testament to this, despite the fact they are all likely the descendants of a "prototype dog".

Human races have been seperated for a significantly greater period then the various strains of dogs have been seperated- and the variations in environment would serve to encourage similar "selective breeding".

2)As is aforementioned, the differences are significantly greater then that.

3)I'd question that. Excess braincapacity that is not necessary for survival and reproduction is actually a disadvantage, as it increases the time taken for a human to fully mature, as well as the energy the brain uses up.

[Athena]

If a White mother has a Black son, what race is the child?

We know we can breed dogs to serve different functions, such as companion dogs, guard dogs, herding, hunting. So equal differences amoung humans is possible. However, there is a wide range of differences among African tribes, and speaking of them as though they one are genetic group is an error. And plenty of White people are complete idiots, whole others good leaders. I suppose we could carry the argument, you appear to be making, to justifying the old idea that some people are fit to rule and others must be ruled. The difference is not limited to race.

Genetic Studies in Dogs

[Jinei]

Quote by: RealRockingham 1)I will repeat myself: You cannot say the the evolutionary pressures that existed on the brains of Australian Aboriginal, Pygmy, Arctic and Caucasoid populations were the same. Certain mental traits would have been selected against and became extremely rare on non-existant in those environments. Even if no NEW genetic traits emerged, the average occurence of the multiple genes which impact mental traits would be different dependant on the region as part of the process of natural selection.

We had all we needed once we left Africa. (read below)

2) Huh? The fact that we have white skin as a reaction to cooler climates is just one example of the fact that the evolutionary pressures on whites were different to those on, for example, Australian Aboriginals. Though you are right that we are not the sole race to have experienced the evolutionary hardship of a cooler climate- the Asian/Oriental/Mongoloid race experienced such pressures as Caucasoids did as well(that is a cooler climate requiring social cooperation), and to a greater extent- which is the reason for their epicanthic fold over the eyes, and in all likelihood also the reason for their superior intelligence and greater predisposition to submit to authority.

So it is your contention that cooler climates cause more social cooperation, which in turn causes higher intelligence? But evidence have you to support the idea that warmer climates do not require more social cooperation?

3) Umm no, we are not set apart in that. East Asians were resposnible for many achievements as well. The Mayans were actually ahead of the Greeks in terms of Maths and Astronomy. The only races to have contributed or achieved absolutely nothing on their own are Australian Aboriginals and the Capoid race. The Black African race has made some minor acheivements.

Are these achievements caused by the collective will of the race or talented individuals on the extremes of the bell curve? Surely it is the latter, and to say that their achievements represent the race as a whole is a classic use of the tail wagging the dog fallacy.

4)As previously said, even if civilisation didn't cause any new genetic traits to emerge, it probably affected the ratio at which certain genetic traits occured among populations.

But intelligence isn't something decided by some unitary factor in the genes. It is in what stock that civilization holds education that determines the intelligence within a population.

[Walrus]

Quote by: grandpa If the claim is, "Different cultures have different levels of intelligence," I can't argue with that. But racial differences are quite another thing. Intellectually speaking, the ascension of certain white people to power in America has been terrible, and it's been leading to an even less literate generation. I'm not saying it's because they are white, and that's essentially my point. In order to create an intelligent society, people have to be interested in creating an intelligent culture. It's not a racial question so much as it is a societal one. Grandpa h.

Yes, I agree. I think the rise of what we think of as intelligent civilisation probably relates to the development of writing, in that it gave people the ability to store knowledge and with it one hell of an advantage. This appears to have evolved independently in China, Mesopotamia and South America. Our writing systems probably evolved from the early Sumerians but with the exception of the Nubian kingdom of Kush, it never got down as far as main black African continent, and this was probably down to reasons of geography.

[Piscean]

Quote by: RealRockingham OK, I get the idea that my former "90 facts" thread might have been too extensive, in that 90 facts were too many for people to give a damn about. So let me challenge you with just one question: Given that all living humans are all descended from an initial "prototype" of human, that is a single race, and given that such significant differences are emerged among humans in physical terms through the process of evolution, how can such differences not also have emerged in mental capacities as part of the process of evolution?

It would be impossible for a black person to be well educated and placed in any position where intelligence is necessary if indeed black people were un-evolved. This is clearly not true since a well educated black person can be a rocket scientist or surgeon or whatever else you can think of.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Piscean It would be impossible for a black person to be well educated and placed in any position where intelligence is necessary if indeed black people were un-evolved. This is clearly not true since a well educated black person can be a rocket scientist or surgeon or whatever else you can think of.

Name one famous black scientist.

[xyzer]

If one believes that the process of the evolution of a species is related to its environment and survival of the fittest, then mental as well as physical differences within the same species can and will differ overtime and as the environment changes..

e.g. some who believe it is easier to drive prey into a trap and then kill them would have to use their mental prowess figuring out how it can best be done. On the other hand those that just keep on chasing down their prey don't have to develop the same mental acumen. Though the idea of a chase can also be changed by the invention of better weapons? Thats a bit simplistic but I think it makes the point. Those in any species who find a better way stand a better chance of survival. The species then develops along the successful approaches used within the group or else falls behind.

[Chris]

this is hogwash.

Humans evolved into a race in Africa, and when humans migrated around the world, through subsequent generations, they evolved different races.

The reason you have westerners being smarter than jungle tribesman is because the tribesman didnt study physics. But that tribesman has every single bit of potential for knowledge as anyone.

[Piscean]

Quote by: tinybear Name one famous black scientist.

Famous African American Scientists | QUEST Community Science Blog - KQED

[Piscean]

Quote by: Chris this is hogwash. Humans evolved into a race in Africa, and when humans migrated around the world, through subsequent generations, they evolved different races. The reason you have westerners being smarter than jungle tribesman is because the tribesman didnt study physics. But that tribesman has every single bit of potential for knowledge as anyone.

Agreed

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: tinybear Name one famous black scientist.

George Washington Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your kidding me, right? that was off the top of my head, probably buried from, like, 6th grade history.

Races are mainly seperated by superficial variations. Sure, if you isolate a community long enough, serious mental variations are possible, but we humans don't stay in one place for long, and we breed with the locals when we move.

[Chris]

Quote by: tinybear Name one famous black scientist.

How about Neil (The Man) deGrasse Tyson?

[Vee]

Not exactly on topic but the human mind can only grasp 7-9 things at a time.