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Nov 16, 2003, 09:01 pm

Exerpts of Internal emails of CHIEF Engineer at DIEBOLD (a manufacturer of Electronic voting systems)

In response to a question about a presentation in El Paso County, Colorado:

“For a demonstration I suggest you fake it. Progam them both so they look the same, and then just do the upload fro [sic] the AV. That is what we did in the last AT/AV demo.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archiv...3/msg00098.html ]

“If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archiv...9/msg00109.html ]

Is this company really contracted and certified by the US Government?

To count our votes?

take a sharpie and use it!

www.americanether.net

laserkid · Nov 16, 2003, 10:24 pm

The idea of electornic voting is fine but it wouldnt save time if they did it the only way I'd use it - you see if we made it ONLINE voting then it becomes a target for hackers - and I dont know about you but the LAST thing I want hacked is my vote.

fishamaphone · Nov 16, 2003, 11:07 pm

No, electronic voting is too easy to fake. Let's say the pregnant chad scenario happens again, or something similar, or perhaps there's a power outage during the election. How do we go back and check who voted how? We have nothing physical to go back on, just the results that the machine tallied, which we know are faulty.

I say we should use a combination: a voter votes on a paper ballot with a pen or marker(no punch-holes), and then proceeds to transpose those votes into a computer via touchscreen. The paper ballots are kept as a backup, but not looked upon unless a problem arises with the machinery.

**Sean** · Nov 17, 2003, 12:23 am

hey look, an electronic poll post on the issue of electronic....polls ;)

laserkid · Nov 18, 2003, 04:16 pm

indeed so but theres also comments here and its not about to be counted as a vote by the US Government.

soverybored · Nov 19, 2003, 02:45 am

Not only that, the companies that are making these electronic machines are known to be contributors to the republican party!

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 12:52 pm

yes! it's a big scam! the republicans have wired the machines to only cast republican votes!

(the sky is falling)

laserkid · Nov 21, 2003, 05:48 am

yes those wascally wepublicans are all about stealing votes.

PH34R 73h R16h7 \/\/1/\/6 (0/\/5p1r4(y!

Yeah, thats how little I take that theory, I wrote my reply in L337...

Scribbler1 · Dec 7, 2003, 03:09 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
yes! it's a big scam! the republicans have wired the machines to only cast republican votes!

(the sky is falling)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Nah, too easy to get caught at. The problem is with ALL forms of voting. Once the polls close, who counts them there, and who do THEY give the votes to, and then where do THOSE numbers go, and so on, until the government finally releases the results. Even the local Register of Wills election can be rigged, and there are a lot fewer steps.
A new, more tamper-resistant way to vote has to be developed as the current system is not just damn near impossible to control, but the results are simply and blindly believed by most people. Hell, you know this president wasnt even elected by anything other than the Supreme Court and most of the sheep have forgotten that already and act like Bush won by a landslide.
I won't claim to know how to fix it (I have a few ideas, but none *I* would even trust completely) but we have to find a way to guarantee the accuracy of the voting process. The counts must be verified, but who verifies the verifiers? And of course you have the idiots like in Florida who cant seem to follow an arrow from a name to the corresponding punch hole using a system which has worked for a hundred years.

**Pooeypants** · Jan 31, 2004, 08:08 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sean,)
hey look, an electronic poll post on the issue of electronic....polls <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
The irony is slick huh?

Anyway, if electronic voting gets more ppl to vote, then I'm all for it. If ppl can trust internet banking then why not this?

castille · Jan 31, 2004, 11:26 am

How come everyone assumes the Republicans forge votes? Are all democrats Christian angels who never do wrong?

Remember - no proof, it doesnt exist.

Impenitent · Jan 31, 2004, 11:45 am

I was being sarcastic

castille · Jan 31, 2004, 12:00 pm

Impenitent, I was talking about this fella:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (soverybored,)
Not only that, the companies that are making these electronic machines are known to be contributors to the republican party!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Catch 22 · Jan 31, 2004, 06:02 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
How come everyone assumes the Republicans forge votes? Are all democrats Christian angels who never do wrong?

Remember - no proof, it doesnt exist.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Because the republicans are the ones with all the ties to diebold, their own CEO promised to “deliver votes to the Republican Party”. Democrats may not be much better but they have this habit of not being as politically connected to corporations as republicans do.

castille · Jan 31, 2004, 09:00 pm

How do you assume this? Do you know every single corporation that sponsers Republicans? And every single corporation that sponsers Democrats? Would you provide a list of every corporation affiliated in some form with both parties?

Impenitent · Feb 1, 2004, 12:46 am

and the funny thing is that most companies give to both parties so no matter who wins, big business stays big... that was the only problem microsoft had... they didn't grease the clinton machine like china did

tusaki · Feb 1, 2004, 12:56 pm

-trying to stay out of the republicans/democrats are more evil than democrats/republicans-

We have 'electronic' voting here in the Netherlands for a while now. This is not online voting. This just means that it is a machine which collects the votes. It is automaticly/immediately printed onto a log to prevent fraud. There are several countries with electronic voting and I think most of the problems with voting machines have been dealt with. We have quite a mature and secure system here. How do I know it's secure? I have no idea, I didn't design the system. All I know is that all the parties trust the system and in the end it comes down to trust. Wheter you trust a machine or a person doesn't matter, but I think with a machine it is easier to check for/defend against fraud.

http://www.cs.kun.nl/~wolterp/voting/contents.html

Catch 22 · Feb 1, 2004, 01:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
How do you assume this? Do you know every single corporation that sponsers Republicans? And every single corporation that sponsers Democrats? Would you provide a list of every corporation affiliated in some form with both parties?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm

hehe I love this story.

http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcon....asp?cycle=2004

Now take a look at this table. Notice something? Notice how just about every single corporation is slanted republican. Notice how the strong democratic donors are all unions of some form or trial lawyers.

if you would like to go more in depth go ahead the CRP has full coverage of election donors.

bentodd · Feb 10, 2004, 07:46 am

I would never trust electronic voting. I live in northeastern Vermont and we do not use the machines. When I vote I an X on a piece of paper.

To anyone who lives where they use voting machines protest it and volunteer to help count paper ballots. That will get them thinking.

Feb 10, 2004, 07:50 am

I say let there be corruption at yet another brilliant idea. The only reason they'd allow electronic voting is so someone or group can get their hands on and change whatever doesn't go the way as planned by the richest of politicians..

View Poll Results: Do you Trust Electronic Voting?
1.yes	3	8.57%
2.no	24	68.57%
3.need to do more research to have an opinion	3	8.57%
4. don't like the idea altogether	5	14.29%
Voters: 35. You may not vote

Nov 16, 2003, 10:24 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	The idea of electornic voting is fine but it wouldnt save time if they did it the only way I'd use it - you see if we made it ONLINE voting then it becomes a target for hackers - and I dont know about you but the LAST thing I want hacked is my vote. "That is a Secret." -Xellos

Nov 17, 2003, 12:23 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	hey look, an electronic poll post on the issue of electronic....polls ;) So it goes

Nov 18, 2003, 04:16 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	indeed so but theres also comments here and its not about to be counted as a vote by the US Government. "That is a Secret." -Xellos

Nov 19, 2003, 02:45 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
soverybored Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	Not only that, the companies that are making these electronic machines are known to be contributors to the republican party! www.seriousdiscussion.com Serious talk forum for serious people.

Nov 16, 2003, 09:01 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
etherkat Guest Posts: n/a	Exerpts of Internal emails of CHIEF Engineer at DIEBOLD (a manufacturer of Electronic voting systems) In response to a question about a presentation in El Paso County, Colorado: “For a demonstration I suggest you fake it. Progam them both so they look the same, and then just do the upload fro [sic] the AV. That is what we did in the last AT/AV demo.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archiv...3/msg00098.html ] “If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archiv...9/msg00109.html ] Is this company really contracted and certified by the US Government? To count our votes? take a sharpie and use it! www.americanether.net

Nov 16, 2003, 11:07 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
fishamaphone Molten Ash Posts: 68	No, electronic voting is too easy to fake. Let's say the pregnant chad scenario happens again, or something similar, or perhaps there's a power outage during the election. How do we go back and check who voted how? We have nothing physical to go back on, just the results that the machine tallied, which we know are faulty. I say we should use a combination: a voter votes on a paper ballot with a pen or marker(no punch-holes), and then proceeds to transpose those votes into a computer via touchscreen. The paper ballots are kept as a backup, but not looked upon unless a problem arises with the machinery.

Nov 19, 2003, 12:52 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	yes! it's a big scam! the republicans have wired the machines to only cast republican votes! (the sky is falling) "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 21, 2003, 05:48 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	yes those wascally wepublicans are all about stealing votes. PH34R 73h R16h7 \/\/1/\/6 (0/\/5p1r4(y! Yeah, thats how little I take that theory, I wrote my reply in L337... "That is a Secret." -Xellos

Dec 7, 2003, 03:09 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) yes! it's a big scam! the republicans have wired the machines to only cast republican votes! (the sky is falling)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Nah, too easy to get caught at. The problem is with ALL forms of voting. Once the polls close, who counts them there, and who do THEY give the votes to, and then where do THOSE numbers go, and so on, until the government finally releases the results. Even the local Register of Wills election can be rigged, and there are a lot fewer steps. A new, more tamper-resistant way to vote has to be developed as the current system is not just damn near impossible to control, but the results are simply and blindly believed by most people. Hell, you know this president wasnt even elected by anything other than the Supreme Court and most of the sheep have forgotten that already and act like Bush won by a landslide. I won't claim to know how to fix it (I have a few ideas, but none I would even trust completely) but we have to find a way to guarantee the accuracy of the voting process. The counts must be verified, but who verifies the verifiers? And of course you have the idiots like in Florida who cant seem to follow an arrow from a name to the corresponding punch hole using a system which has worked for a hundred years. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Jan 31, 2004, 08:08 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sean,) hey look, an electronic poll post on the issue of electronic....polls <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The irony is slick huh? Anyway, if electronic voting gets more ppl to vote, then I'm all for it. If ppl can trust internet banking then why not this? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 31, 2004, 11:26 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	How come everyone assumes the Republicans forge votes? Are all democrats Christian angels who never do wrong? Remember - no proof, it doesnt exist. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 31, 2004, 11:45 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	I was being sarcastic "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 31, 2004, 12:00 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Impenitent, I was talking about this fella: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (soverybored,) Not only that, the companies that are making these electronic machines are known to be contributors to the republican party!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 31, 2004, 06:02 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Location: New York Posts: 374	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) How come everyone assumes the Republicans forge votes? Are all democrats Christian angels who never do wrong? Remember - no proof, it doesnt exist.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Because the republicans are the ones with all the ties to diebold, their own CEO promised to “deliver votes to the Republican Party”. Democrats may not be much better but they have this habit of not being as politically connected to corporations as republicans do. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Jan 31, 2004, 09:00 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	How do you assume this? Do you know every single corporation that sponsers Republicans? And every single corporation that sponsers Democrats? Would you provide a list of every corporation affiliated in some form with both parties? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 1, 2004, 12:46 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	and the funny thing is that most companies give to both parties so no matter who wins, big business stays big... that was the only problem microsoft had... they didn't grease the clinton machine like china did "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 1, 2004, 12:56 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	-trying to stay out of the republicans/democrats are more evil than democrats/republicans- We have 'electronic' voting here in the Netherlands for a while now. This is not online voting. This just means that it is a machine which collects the votes. It is automaticly/immediately printed onto a log to prevent fraud. There are several countries with electronic voting and I think most of the problems with voting machines have been dealt with. We have quite a mature and secure system here. How do I know it's secure? I have no idea, I didn't design the system. All I know is that all the parties trust the system and in the end it comes down to trust. Wheter you trust a machine or a person doesn't matter, but I think with a machine it is easier to check for/defend against fraud. http://www.cs.kun.nl/~wolterp/voting/contents.html Hope & Dream

Feb 1, 2004, 01:13 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Location: New York Posts: 374	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) How do you assume this? Do you know every single corporation that sponsers Republicans? And every single corporation that sponsers Democrats? Would you provide a list of every corporation affiliated in some form with both parties?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm hehe I love this story. http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcon....asp?cycle=2004 Now take a look at this table. Notice something? Notice how just about every single corporation is slanted republican. Notice how the strong democratic donors are all unions of some form or trial lawyers. if you would like to go more in depth go ahead the CRP has full coverage of election donors. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Feb 10, 2004, 07:46 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
bentodd Molten Ash Posts: 76	I would never trust electronic voting. I live in northeastern Vermont and we do not use the machines. When I vote I an X on a piece of paper. To anyone who lives where they use voting machines protest it and volunteer to help count paper ballots. That will get them thinking. Whant to see a Libertarian get elected? I have recieved the Libertarian and Republican nominations.www.toddforhouse.com Benjamin Todd Candidate for Vermont House

Feb 10, 2004, 07:50 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
CitizenCOP Guest Posts: n/a	I say let there be corruption at yet another brilliant idea. The only reason they'd allow electronic voting is so someone or group can get their hands on and change whatever doesn't go the way as planned by the richest of politicians..