Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Waychel · Nov 22, 2003, 06:00 pm

I don't really see Warez as very much of a threat, because the people who download/use Warez in most cases wouldn't have paid for the original software. There are exceptions though, of course. I suppose it depends on what kind of software it is.

The only people who have bought software (and steadily continue to since Warez has become common place) are those seeking to use it for a business or organization. These same people cannot use Warez because if they did, they could be sued substantially for it and have their business license revoked, among other disastrous penalties depending on their profession.

So if the only people then who are using Warez are those who would not have bought the software originally, I fail to see where the loss/harm is towards the developer. Besides, Warez for personal use is by technicality not illegal if it is kept private.

white rice · Nov 22, 2003, 11:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
Besides, Warez for personal use is by technicality not illegal if it is kept private.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That sounds like, "It's not cheating unless you get caught."

It is illegal, but the authorities don't have a way of knowing that you have it.

Waychel · Nov 23, 2003, 12:12 am

Its perfectly legal to be in the possession of un-licensed software.

What is illegal is distributing un-licensed software (propogation leading to estimated losses) and using un-licensed software for a business or organization (financial benefit from an un-licensed product). Personal/private use are "legal" not because "law enforcement doesn't know", but because by itself un-licensed software isn't an illegal material to possess (...yet).

So, law enforcement can't arrest or charge anyone for the illegal possession of un-licensed software when it hasn't been made illegal yet. This is also why only the people who distribute mp3s are being sued by the RIAA, and not those who simply download or are in the possession of them, for one such example.

That's also why the RIAA is fighting like hell to change things in California - with no luck. =D

castille · Nov 26, 2003, 10:13 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Ahh, you don't listen to music? That might be why your a heartless bastard. Ignorant too, but I can't blame you for that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I can see why you are so ignorant and ethnocentric....what does music have to do with having a heart?

I bet you'd fit perfectly into the Nazi sculpture. "You're a Jew? No wonder you stink so much."

G. Adams · Nov 26, 2003, 11:32 am

Nope, if you havn't already noticed, i'm a communist, and the nazi's rounded up and executed the communists just as the did jews. Were diametrically opposite politically.

I didn't come to the conclusion you were a heartless bastard for not listening to music, I came to the conclusion you were a heartless bastard first, then simply offered your not liking music as a possible reason.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille)
Who cares...let those kids shoot each other or poison each other. Too bad for them. That way they will learn some facts of life before being released into the world.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

from the "South Carolina Youth Get A Lesson In "freedom"?" topic.

So from this post, and you havn't post anywhere else that would suggest you are a good person, I can only see you as a heatless bastard.

Now music is as close to true expression as you can get. Poetry can come close, but plain language is just pathetic. Perhaps if you got into music you could express yourself better, instead of boiling over in your pent up agression. Its not good for you, y'know? Make you impotent.

white rice · Dec 2, 2003, 12:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
Its perfectly legal to be in the possession of un-licensed software.

What is illegal is distributing un-licensed software (propogation leading to estimated losses) and using un-licensed software for a business or organization (financial benefit from an un-licensed product). Personal/private use are "legal" not because "law enforcement doesn't know", but because by itself un-licensed software isn't an illegal material to possess (...yet).

So, law enforcement can't arrest or charge anyone for the illegal possession of un-licensed software when it hasn't been made illegal yet. This is also why only the people who distribute mp3s are being sued by the RIAA, and not those who simply download or are in the possession of them, for one such example.

That's also why the RIAA is fighting like hell to change things in California - with no luck. =D<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I read up on this. :)

The 'No Electronic Theft' Act (97)

"(2) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $ 1,000 shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, United States Code. For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement.'.

Reproduction can mean the copying or downloading of warez. It's only illegal if you have more than a grand worth (retail value) of warez which is very possible if you have broadband....

Waychel · Dec 2, 2003, 01:10 am

whiterice, as was stated in my previous post, propogation, distribution or use for business/organization are what is illegal.

What you posted just repeated exactly what I said. =PpP Yes, reproduction is illegal - as it is propogation and is interpreted as possible distribution - but to reproduce un-licensed material is outside of direct personal use in the first place.

BTW, are you Asian?

white rice · Dec 2, 2003, 01:33 am

I don't consider MP3s as warez though the link did include phonorecords.

I'm saying that if you download it, you're playing your role seperate to the distribution end by reproducing it onto your hardrive. So if you have more than 1000 dollars worth of warez and for some chance the police search your house in an unrelated manner, then they can also prosecute you for it.

Besides, most licensed non-free software has an End User License Agreement that you have to agree to in order to install the program. Possessing warez even for private use breaks the EULA and could be litigable depending on the terms.

If I'm not understanding you clearly in your replies, then my mistake.

Yes, I'm Asian. What tipped you off? :)

greendeath · Dec 5, 2003, 04:15 am

I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather.

I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely.

Honestly, how hard is it to just go and download Kazaa/Soul Seeker/some other P2P program? It isn't...while I believe there are people out there that eliterate you have to take into consideration that some people are PROGRAMMERS, and warez gives them a hard time making a living.

castille · Dec 5, 2003, 09:32 am

I don't see why music downloading should be illegal. In fact, I believe it encourages music companies to start getting creative and competitive. Anything for more competition.

G Adams - is it my imagination, or do you follow my every post? You really lack a social life, do you?

**Pooeypants** · Dec 9, 2003, 06:48 am

Wow. Just because stealing has been made easy we've now seen the bulk of society start to accept it. Ah well, so much for morals.

darwinist · Dec 9, 2003, 11:33 am

Or as some people in the above posts mentioned.

"It's not stealing, if you can get away with it...!!!"

Or don't get caught.

Sodfather · Dec 9, 2003, 02:03 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,)
I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Okay, we'll get to that in a minute, but...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,)
while I believe there are people out there that eliterate you have to take into consideration that some people are PROGRAMMERS, and warez gives them a hard time making a living.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I really don't know what the correct arrangement of this sentence which you were aiming for was, but I do know that there's no such word as "eliterate," nor "elliterate," nor "iliterate." Were you going for "illiterate?"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,)
I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather.

I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Okay, how is that disagreeing with my logic? Or perhaps you stated that you disagreed with my logic and gave no reasons for doing so--you simply moved on to stating your opinion? I'll take it as the former.

So I ask again, how is that disagreeing with me? Your argument looks as if the point you are disagreeing with is that people who don't download warez should still be able to use computers. The only point you could be arguing about is how I said that only people who don't know where to find warex condemn it...And that is quite true.

Please reply with something intelligible to humans.

**Pooeypants** · Dec 9, 2003, 02:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (darwinist,)
Or as some people in the above posts mentioned.

"It's not stealing, if you can get away with it...!!!"

Or don't get caught.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm sure one day, one of these guys will work in a software company etc, and then I hope they have all their hardwork (say 5 years of work on a game) which gets nicked via hacking and distributed all over the net. Ah, isn't that a nice thought?

zkreso · Dec 10, 2003, 03:46 pm

I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way.

So refer to is at illegal copying or copyright infringment or something, but not stealing.
It's biased, because it makes it sound worse than it is. Ie. the RIAA says "it's just like going to a store and taking a CD" - but it's not. They just phrase it like that to make it seem more wrong. It's more like going to your friends house and copying it to a tape. Of course if this happens on a mass scale it gets much worse, but still, the word stealing is not a good one.
Ok now I'm just repeating myself, you all get my point hopefully.

darwinist · Dec 10, 2003, 04:24 pm

Dear Zkreso,

You do not like the word 'stealing', huh?

Ok, i off to print so of my own money. It is not 'stealing', i am not taking anything. I making something, it is productive, right? I am adding to the economy, keeping the retaillers happy.

Or should we call a shovel a spade?

zkreso · Dec 10, 2003, 04:55 pm

Well no, I wouldn't call printing your own money stealing. it's... printing your own money. Forgery or something.
I'm just ticked off about the way anti-filesharers use the word stealing about it to make it sound really wrong while in fact there is no "stealing" happening at all, at least not in the traditional sense, the sense that they try to appeal to when they use the word.

Sodfather · Dec 10, 2003, 06:25 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,)
I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I believe it is in order for you to view the definition of the verb "to steal." Is what you are taking yours? No, it's not. Therefore, it is stealing. Individuals' purposes for and consciousness of their stealing vary indeed, but the fact that it is stealing still remains.

**Pooeypants** · Dec 11, 2003, 10:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,)
I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I believe it is in order for you to view the definition of the verb "to steal." Is what you are taking yours? No, it's not. Therefore, it is stealing. Individuals' purposes for and consciousness of their stealing vary indeed, but the fact that it is stealing still remains.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Funny how these Warez users try to make it so that it seems they're morally and legally correct.

Waychel · Dec 11, 2003, 01:43 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I'm saying that if you download it, you're playing your role seperate to the distribution end by reproducing it onto your hardrive. So if you have more than 1000 dollars worth of warez and for some chance the police search your house in an unrelated manner, then they can also prosecute you for it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
You are wrong here on many accounts. First of all, law enforcement must obtain a search warrent if they wish to search your home. Second, because hundreds of copies of un-licensed software or other material are not contraband, they would be catagorized as evidence in a case on illegal distribution. If law enforcement wished to confiscate these, they would have to leave your home and come back with a second search warrent at a later time. This second search warrent would allow law enforcement to confiscate that material and book it into evidence on charges in an unlawful distribution case. There is a large distinction here between actual contraband and possible evidence in a criminal case, and that distinction makes what you just described wrongful seizure on law enforcement's part.

This is also ignoring the fact that, as I said before, un-licensed software is not illegal to be in the possession of. Un-licensed software, mp3s, etc. are not contraband like marijuana or (some) guns are. You cannot be prosecuted for having the warez version of Adobe Photoshop sitting on your home computer. What you would be prosecuted for would be having thousands of copies of the same un-licensed software on CD in your room, or having uploaded this un-licensed software to a website or FTP.

As for downloading this material playing a role in distribution, this isn't true either. By downloading something you are not distributing it to other people or sources. The person responsible for the crime of distribution is the person you are obtaining the software or other material from.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Besides, most licensed non-free software has an End User License Agreement that you have to agree to in order to install the program. Possessing warez even for private use breaks the EULA and could be litigable depending on the terms.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Difficult for someone to be held responsible for breaking an EULA they never saw or agreed to. The person at fault here would be the person who created/initially distributed the warez copy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Yes, I'm Asian. What tipped you off? :)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
May I see your pic? =D

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I believe this comes down to a matter of morals. Personally, I download much of the music that I listen to, but this is only because I would otherwise not be in the position to purchase it (due to it being foreign). If I was able to purchase music CDs from Turkey or Japan at reasonable prices without shipping and other costs being taken into account, I would be buying a-lot more of my music instead of downloading it. This doesn't mean I'm "stupid", it means I feel that I have some obligation to these artists that have shared something with me. If feasible, I want to purchase their material and give something back. The same also goes for videogames. I would rather physically own the game and support the developer that created it.

Overall it is a grey area, but I think it is wrong to take up the self-righteous attitude that those who actually pay for things are foolish or inferior. Not paying $600 for Adobe Photoshop is one thing, but not paying a reasonable price such as $30 for a videogame you can walk down to the mall and buy is just ridiculous. Morally, to me, this is a crime... because while these software companies rely on businesses for their income and don't take any damages from software distribution, game developers rely on people like you and me for their income, and are actually being hurt.

Yeah, I'm a hypocrit. =PpP

View Poll Results: Is warez a positive or negative thing?
Positive	12	42.86%
Negative	3	10.71%
It's stealing, you idiot!	5	17.86%
I'm Mixed.	8	28.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote

Nov 22, 2003, 06:00 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I don't really see Warez as very much of a threat, because the people who download/use Warez in most cases wouldn't have paid for the original software. There are exceptions though, of course. I suppose it depends on what kind of software it is. The only people who have bought software (and steadily continue to since Warez has become common place) are those seeking to use it for a business or organization. These same people cannot use Warez because if they did, they could be sued substantially for it and have their business license revoked, among other disastrous penalties depending on their profession. So if the only people then who are using Warez are those who would not have bought the software originally, I fail to see where the loss/harm is towards the developer. Besides, Warez for personal use is by technicality not illegal if it is kept private. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Nov 22, 2003, 11:13 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) Besides, Warez for personal use is by technicality not illegal if it is kept private.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That sounds like, "It's not cheating unless you get caught." It is illegal, but the authorities don't have a way of knowing that you have it. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Nov 23, 2003, 12:12 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Its perfectly legal to be in the possession of un-licensed software. What is illegal is distributing un-licensed software (propogation leading to estimated losses) and using un-licensed software for a business or organization (financial benefit from an un-licensed product). Personal/private use are "legal" not because "law enforcement doesn't know", but because by itself un-licensed software isn't an illegal material to possess (...yet). So, law enforcement can't arrest or charge anyone for the illegal possession of un-licensed software when it hasn't been made illegal yet. This is also why only the people who distribute mp3s are being sued by the RIAA, and not those who simply download or are in the possession of them, for one such example. That's also why the RIAA is fighting like hell to change things in California - with no luck. =D Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Nov 26, 2003, 10:13 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) Ahh, you don't listen to music? That might be why your a heartless bastard. Ignorant too, but I can't blame you for that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I can see why you are so ignorant and ethnocentric....what does music have to do with having a heart? I bet you'd fit perfectly into the Nazi sculpture. "You're a Jew? No wonder you stink so much." Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 26, 2003, 11:32 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Nope, if you havn't already noticed, i'm a communist, and the nazi's rounded up and executed the communists just as the did jews. Were diametrically opposite politically. I didn't come to the conclusion you were a heartless bastard for not listening to music, I came to the conclusion you were a heartless bastard first, then simply offered your not liking music as a possible reason. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille) Who cares...let those kids shoot each other or poison each other. Too bad for them. That way they will learn some facts of life before being released into the world. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> from the "South Carolina Youth Get A Lesson In "freedom"?" topic. So from this post, and you havn't post anywhere else that would suggest you are a good person, I can only see you as a heatless bastard. Now music is as close to true expression as you can get. Poetry can come close, but plain language is just pathetic. Perhaps if you got into music you could express yourself better, instead of boiling over in your pent up agression. Its not good for you, y'know? Make you impotent. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Dec 2, 2003, 12:02 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) Its perfectly legal to be in the possession of un-licensed software. What is illegal is distributing un-licensed software (propogation leading to estimated losses) and using un-licensed software for a business or organization (financial benefit from an un-licensed product). Personal/private use are "legal" not because "law enforcement doesn't know", but because by itself un-licensed software isn't an illegal material to possess (...yet). So, law enforcement can't arrest or charge anyone for the illegal possession of un-licensed software when it hasn't been made illegal yet. This is also why only the people who distribute mp3s are being sued by the RIAA, and not those who simply download or are in the possession of them, for one such example. That's also why the RIAA is fighting like hell to change things in California - with no luck. =D<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I read up on this. :) The 'No Electronic Theft' Act (97) "(2) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $ 1,000 shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, United States Code. For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement.'. Reproduction can mean the copying or downloading of warez. It's only illegal if you have more than a grand worth (retail value) of warez which is very possible if you have broadband.... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 2, 2003, 01:10 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	whiterice, as was stated in my previous post, propogation, distribution or use for business/organization are what is illegal. What you posted just repeated exactly what I said. =PpP Yes, reproduction is illegal - as it is propogation and is interpreted as possible distribution - but to reproduce un-licensed material is outside of direct personal use in the first place. BTW, are you Asian? Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Dec 2, 2003, 01:33 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	I don't consider MP3s as warez though the link did include phonorecords. I'm saying that if you download it, you're playing your role seperate to the distribution end by reproducing it onto your hardrive. So if you have more than 1000 dollars worth of warez and for some chance the police search your house in an unrelated manner, then they can also prosecute you for it. Besides, most licensed non-free software has an End User License Agreement that you have to agree to in order to install the program. Possessing warez even for private use breaks the EULA and could be litigable depending on the terms. If I'm not understanding you clearly in your replies, then my mistake. Yes, I'm Asian. What tipped you off? :) Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 5, 2003, 04:15 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
greendeath Molten Ash Posts: 47	I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather. I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely. Honestly, how hard is it to just go and download Kazaa/Soul Seeker/some other P2P program? It isn't...while I believe there are people out there that eliterate you have to take into consideration that some people are PROGRAMMERS, and warez gives them a hard time making a living.

Dec 5, 2003, 09:32 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	I don't see why music downloading should be illegal. In fact, I believe it encourages music companies to start getting creative and competitive. Anything for more competition. G Adams - is it my imagination, or do you follow my every post? You really lack a social life, do you? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Dec 9, 2003, 06:48 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,549	Wow. Just because stealing has been made easy we've now seen the bulk of society start to accept it. Ah well, so much for morals. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Dec 9, 2003, 11:33 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Or as some people in the above posts mentioned. "It's not stealing, if you can get away with it...!!!" Or don't get caught. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 9, 2003, 02:03 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,) I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Okay, we'll get to that in a minute, but... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,) while I believe there are people out there that eliterate you have to take into consideration that some people are PROGRAMMERS, and warez gives them a hard time making a living.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I really don't know what the correct arrangement of this sentence which you were aiming for was, but I do know that there's no such word as "eliterate," nor "elliterate," nor "iliterate." Were you going for "illiterate?" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (greendeath,) I completely disagree with your logic Sodfather. I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Okay, how is that disagreeing with my logic? Or perhaps you stated that you disagreed with my logic and gave no reasons for doing so--you simply moved on to stating your opinion? I'll take it as the former. So I ask again, how is that disagreeing with me? Your argument looks as if the point you are disagreeing with is that people who don't download warez should still be able to use computers. The only point you could be arguing about is how I said that only people who don't know where to find warex condemn it...And that is quite true. Please reply with something intelligible to humans.

Dec 9, 2003, 02:27 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,549	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (darwinist,) Or as some people in the above posts mentioned. "It's not stealing, if you can get away with it...!!!" Or don't get caught.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm sure one day, one of these guys will work in a software company etc, and then I hope they have all their hardwork (say 5 years of work on a game) which gets nicked via hacking and distributed all over the net. Ah, isn't that a nice thought? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Dec 10, 2003, 03:46 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
zkreso Sedimentary Rock Location: Norway Posts: 21	I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way. So refer to is at illegal copying or copyright infringment or something, but not stealing. It's biased, because it makes it sound worse than it is. Ie. the RIAA says "it's just like going to a store and taking a CD" - but it's not. They just phrase it like that to make it seem more wrong. It's more like going to your friends house and copying it to a tape. Of course if this happens on a mass scale it gets much worse, but still, the word stealing is not a good one. Ok now I'm just repeating myself, you all get my point hopefully.

Dec 10, 2003, 04:24 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Dear Zkreso, You do not like the word 'stealing', huh? Ok, i off to print so of my own money. It is not 'stealing', i am not taking anything. I making something, it is productive, right? I am adding to the economy, keeping the retaillers happy. Or should we call a shovel a spade? What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 10, 2003, 04:55 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
zkreso Sedimentary Rock Location: Norway Posts: 21	Well no, I wouldn't call printing your own money stealing. it's... printing your own money. Forgery or something. I'm just ticked off about the way anti-filesharers use the word stealing about it to make it sound really wrong while in fact there is no "stealing" happening at all, at least not in the traditional sense, the sense that they try to appeal to when they use the word.

Dec 10, 2003, 06:25 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,) I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe it is in order for you to view the definition of the verb "to steal." Is what you are taking yours? No, it's not. Therefore, it is stealing. Individuals' purposes for and consciousness of their stealing vary indeed, but the fact that it is stealing still remains.

Dec 11, 2003, 10:03 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,549	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,) I don't really think we should refer to this as stealing, because when you steal ie. someone's car, then they do not have it anymore, while when you download warez you are just copying it to your disk and the person who "originally" had the software does not "lose" it in any way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe it is in order for you to view the definition of the verb "to steal." Is what you are taking yours? No, it's not. Therefore, it is stealing. Individuals' purposes for and consciousness of their stealing vary indeed, but the fact that it is stealing still remains.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Funny how these Warez users try to make it so that it seems they're morally and legally correct. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Dec 11, 2003, 01:43 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I'm saying that if you download it, you're playing your role seperate to the distribution end by reproducing it onto your hardrive. So if you have more than 1000 dollars worth of warez and for some chance the police search your house in an unrelated manner, then they can also prosecute you for it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You are wrong here on many accounts. First of all, law enforcement must obtain a search warrent if they wish to search your home. Second, because hundreds of copies of un-licensed software or other material are not contraband, they would be catagorized as evidence in a case on illegal distribution. If law enforcement wished to confiscate these, they would have to leave your home and come back with a second search warrent at a later time. This second search warrent would allow law enforcement to confiscate that material and book it into evidence on charges in an unlawful distribution case. There is a large distinction here between actual contraband and possible evidence in a criminal case, and that distinction makes what you just described wrongful seizure on law enforcement's part. This is also ignoring the fact that, as I said before, un-licensed software is not illegal to be in the possession of. Un-licensed software, mp3s, etc. are not contraband like marijuana or (some) guns are. You cannot be prosecuted for having the warez version of Adobe Photoshop sitting on your home computer. What you would be prosecuted for would be having thousands of copies of the same un-licensed software on CD in your room, or having uploaded this un-licensed software to a website or FTP. As for downloading this material playing a role in distribution, this isn't true either. By downloading something you are not distributing it to other people or sources. The person responsible for the crime of distribution is the person you are obtaining the software or other material from. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Besides, most licensed non-free software has an End User License Agreement that you have to agree to in order to install the program. Possessing warez even for private use breaks the EULA and could be litigable depending on the terms.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Difficult for someone to be held responsible for breaking an EULA they never saw or agreed to. The person at fault here would be the person who created/initially distributed the warez copy. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Yes, I'm Asian. What tipped you off? :)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> May I see your pic? =D </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I think that anyone too intellectual inept to find out how to gain access to free games, music, and anything else you'd normally have to pay for, are deserving to not only be removed from the internet, but to be banned from computers entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe this comes down to a matter of morals. Personally, I download much of the music that I listen to, but this is only because I would otherwise not be in the position to purchase it (due to it being foreign). If I was able to purchase music CDs from Turkey or Japan at reasonable prices without shipping and other costs being taken into account, I would be buying a-lot more of my music instead of downloading it. This doesn't mean I'm "stupid", it means I feel that I have some obligation to these artists that have shared something with me. If feasible, I want to purchase their material and give something back. The same also goes for videogames. I would rather physically own the game and support the developer that created it. Overall it is a grey area, but I think it is wrong to take up the self-righteous attitude that those who actually pay for things are foolish or inferior. Not paying $600 for Adobe Photoshop is one thing, but not paying a reasonable price such as $30 for a videogame you can walk down to the mall and buy is just ridiculous. Morally, to me, this is a crime... because while these software companies rely on businesses for their income and don't take any damages from software distribution, game developers rely on people like you and me for their income, and are actually being hurt. Yeah, I'm a hypocrit. =PpP Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.