Cern Lhc/alice/atlas

[Robert Marsh II]

Prepare for the Revolution, within ALL BRANCHES of science, technology, and communications! The answers to many controversial theories are at hand; such as: The Big Bang, Accelerating Universe, Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Multiverse (Parallel Dimensions), Bubble Universe(s), Gravity, Time, Anti-Matter, Superstring, Supersymmetry Particles, Higgs Particle, Blackhole Formations, Expanding Quantum Wormhole Formation, . . . etc., and anything else you can think up! CERN LHC/ALICE/ATLAS, if all goes well, will start rendering discoveries between October 2008, and early-mid 2009 (once financed). These experimental projects collide either Protons, or Heavy Lead(Pb) Ions, at 14 TeV (trillion electron volts), and no one actually knows what will happen! Not even the smartest man on Earth: Stephen Hawking! There is already a decade of pre-planned precision energy upgrades (2009-2019), to optimize the 'impact moment', producing even more specific information data! These discoveries shall most likely lead to the overhaul-reconstruction, of the current 'Standard Model'! This in-turn will reconfigure the Cosmological Model, and ignite a chain-reaction of a knowledge explosion! It will be sweeping, with far reaching implications! A Brave New World shall emerge from the ashes of our latest Dark Ages, and perhaps clarity will prevail with a clear vision of our 'reality'! Upto now, a portion of the 'Standard Model' has been nothing more than a theoretical-mathematic representation (intelligent guessing), and this is what the LHC Projects have been based/built upon! Anything becomes possible within the Heisenberg 'Uncertainty Principle', and the uncertainty among LHC designers. This last statement comes with a proviso: Only if Stephen Hawking is incorrect about 'Hawking Radiation', and it's dissipation effects upon (MBH) Micro-Blackholes. He is currently uncertain in this regard! Also, there would have to be a defect (misunderstanding) of the 'Standard Model', and this would have been overlooked by the entire scientific, mathematic, and physics communities combined! The odds are against it; however, Murphys' Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong eventually!!! The following is a Risk List: (MBH) Micro-Blackhole (non-dissipating forms), Expanding Quantum Wormholes (possibly caused by Project ALICE, using heavy lead(Pb) ion collisions, creating a gravitational plasma vortex), Relativistic Time-Distortions (General Relativity), Strangelet Transitions (possibly new destructive forms of matter), Loss of Structural Integrity (by disturbing quantum pathways, that could alter nuclear positionings, and change molecular-chemical structures), and let's not leave out Complete Protonic Particle Reversal (an anti-matter explosion)! The following is the Positive Potential List of unimaginable outgrowth: The secrets may be discovered for a Nuclear and/or Plasma Fusion process. This could be forwarded to a specialized fusion facility, and meet our future-world desperate energy needs!!! Also, the development of Plasma-Driven Pulse-Detonated Fusion-Reactor Engines, for Interstellar Spaceflight. With this power magnitude being sent through a cryonic-superconductivity complex grid, even Time-Travel becomes a possiblity (by creating a negative curvature within Space/Time, envisioned by Einstein-Rosen-Hawking), or at least sending emergency electronic-light messaging, backward in Time!!! We cannot stay on this Earth as a 'race' forever, there will come a time to leave! With the incredibly increasing odds of a Sixth Mass Earth Extinction (perhaps already in progress!), the clock seems to be ticking a little faster lately!!! Research and Debate the risk potentials v/s the unimaginable outgrowth potential, and if the decision is 'yes' to proceed with LHC/ALICE/ATLAS, then do so with extreme caution!!! It is our duty, our right, our obligation to debate these circumstances, for our future generations' welfare (and maybe for our own current time!)! So, let's get with it, and become effective for an excellent cause!!! In this thread, I am neither for, nor against; however, these are some of the general facts involved, and nothing more! I sincerely hope that you will share this expanding view, with friends and associates! Thank You!

[JTankers]

Do you know what you get when you mix high energy colliders with Professor Otto Rossler's charged micro black hole theory?

Answer: a golf ball

(For explaination, see LHCFacts Dot Org and read Professor Dr. Otto Rossler's Interview "Biggest Crimes of Humanity")

[Robert Marsh II]

A special thanks to: JTankers, stevemckay, Chris, and all future voters to come!!! We need: research, debate, decisions, and Vote the Poll! This poll will reflect the public awarness, and general opinion attitudes, to our current, and future generations!!! Thank You! Sincerely, Robert Marsh II / 07.20.08 //,

[Thanatos]

You see, given the fact that its not raining black holes due to cosmic rays, a seven TeV collider really does not scare me. That's an eight order of magnitude comfort zone.

[Robert Marsh II]

A special thanks to: Thanatos, for Voting, and leaving his permanent mark upon history! Note: The pen is mightier than the sword, and an opinion can change the fate of a world! I may not be able to thank each, and every voter, but I shall try!!! Sincerely, Robert Marsh II

[ShadowFox]

If i'm correct, there's already a thread about this somewhere. (P.S. Marsh, you don't have to thank everyone for voting, it's not necessary)

[Robert Marsh II]

A special thanks to: Halofan48, Matt, and Walrus for their truthful votes!!! I am thanking voters, because of gratitude, you may have heard about that, long ago!
Sincerely, Robert Marsh II

[Robert Marsh II]

When I found out, that CERN personnel were scan-reviewing all articles, comments, links, threads, . . .etc., everything; that's when I decided to run this Public Opinion Poll. Don't worry, they're watching! So, let your vote count, and thanks!

[Spider]

Sitting on the Fence. Temps down to -271C metals could get brittle. Something could break.

[loser]

I'm afraid that they are going to be disappointed with the results. High-speed particle crashes will produce extremely brief high intensity particle emissions but they will not change the basic structure of our space-time continuum. No black holes will be opened, no sustained fusion reactions will be started, and no similitude to the Big Bang explosion will be produced.

Still. if the cameras can capture the events, it will definitely be a Fourth of July fireworks display...in November?.

[SteveMcKay]

Quote by: Robert Marsh II A special thanks to: Halofan48, Matt, and Walrus for their truthful votes!!! I am thanking voters, because of gratitude, you may have heard about that, long ago! Sincerely, Robert Marsh II

I appreciate your gratitude but if you insist on giving your thank you than PM would be a better path. When I notice activity here I look for thoughtful debate and when I take the time to login that is what I would like to find.

Also, please contribute to the forum titled “Controversey Surrounding World's Largest Particle Collider” as halofan48 suggests because I would really like to know how you found out that “CERN personnel were scan-reviewing all articles”. Which BTW seems like good PR to me as opposed to something insidious.

[Robert Marsh II]

My reference to: 'a fusion process' was listed under the Positive Potential Outgrowth List. There is about a zero chance, that a 'fusion' reaction could occur during testing!!! However, during the experiments (if successful), within the 'random' quark-splatter detector results, they could make a major discovery! These detector studies could reveal the reason behind, previous fusion experimental failures. Between this, and a far better understanding of the 'Standard Model', the elusive process may be determined. The very moment, the new mathematics is understood, then a seperate fusion facility could takeover the further developmental stages! ////. Also, a special thanks to: Spider, Aussie, nerdvincent, and loser; for their voting power!!! Remember: CERN is watching the media, out of concern, once they were notified about the Internet fear level increasing 300%, in a 15 day period (May 08), and exponentially after that! This caused their concerned observation, of the public situation. I have had direct confidential dealings with LSAG, and I also have read (on one of the Cern sites) a list of every media article, that I have commented upon, and many more (and there is a load), since May-July 2008. This is just the beginning, of debate, before it's too late! I am the neutral host (this time), and the replies should stand as the debate. If you do not vote, then your replies are only half a value!!! I wish to leave a wriiten (Debate/Poll) record, for CERN, and everyone for now, and the future! Thank You!

[Robert Marsh II]

I plan to forward the above Opinion Poll statistics, prior to any major full-power collisions! These will be sent to: Robert Aymar, Catherine Decosse, Michelangelo Mangano, CERN Theory Unit, and Stephen Hawking! I have already made sure, that they are aware of it's 'In Progress' nature, but not taking any chances. The statistics of this poll, will be forwarded no matter what the findings are, at that time! Remember, I am a neutral observer, and the poll, and replies become the debate!!! CERN will at least know, what this public opinion poll shows, prior to major testing!

[soarhead]

Dare we pull back the curtain? We will gain more knowledge, but remember, knowledge without wisdome is powerless!

Soarhead

[Robert_Bumbalou]

Comments from lay people like me are of little or no use to a professional scientist. However, if I were qualified to opine on these matters, I'd say 'keep up the good work.' because I want to know what makes stuff be stuff.

[minorwork]

This bit of speculation, [COLOR=#810081]A 'New Dimension' at the LHC[/COLOR], on the CERN facility brings to mind the origins of the Subtle Knife, in Philip Pullman's Dark Materials sequel to the Golden Compass. The inter dimensional knife was a result of such as the CERN collider. So far, fiction.


The physicists at Batavia's Fermilab might find Higgs first. That large computer sifting of data is necessary reminds me of the House episode where the automated blood tests did not reveal parasitic worms until much later when a human viewed the blood. Television sure, but increasing amounts of data at CERN and likewise from LIGO (search for undetected gravity waves) have caused me to wonder at what we may be missing in the noise. Are we shaping the noise by our computer programmed search parameters?

Already I see signs of H.P. Lovecraft's thought in this thread epitomized by the United States fundamentalist theists rejection of science and pursuit of Creationism..

�The most merciful thing in the world ... is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality... That we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.� - H. P. Lovecraft

[rpr103]

Going back top the issues of black holes, surely the conditions at the centre of the Sun (and other stars) are more extreme than those that will be generated by the LHC, in which case, the sun would have turned into a black hole billions of years ago. Or maybe I am talking a load of rubbish....

[Nederluv]

Well, I’m on the fence this time…
ITER will provide us with information about future fusion facilities. There are other ways to research the possibilities of interstellar spaceflight and time travel just sounds like a bad idea to me, although I could go back to beat up the bullies that used to beat me up during my early school days xD
We will achieve other ways to test the theories. Can’t we find out whether the Higgs boson exists by developing better microscopes or something like picotechnology or even yoctatechnology??? Even though they don’t have any mass (excluding the theoretical Higgs boson of course). It must consist of something, such particles can be seen right??
Since we do not understand the possible consequences of the research conducted at LHC. We are clueless of what will happen. We should not wager the ongoing existence of humanity for a little amount of knowledge.
Anyway, I can’t stop it and even if I could, I probably wouldn’t. Since there is this other voice in my head which screams: GIMME KNOWLEDGE NOW!!! So by the time they fire her up, I will join the BOINC LHC project while hoping and wishing that nothing goes wrong... Heck, even though I’m agnostic, I might even pray for it!

[MindKata]

I fully accept very high energy subatomic particles do occur in nature (although their frequency of occurrence isn't very high, (by high I mean we don't seen billions of very high energy particles per square micrometre every nano second, but the occasional few definitely do occur, however they are lone particles).

However, we will have high concentrations of high energy particles in the LHC *in a very small space*

I am going to play devils advocate for a moment, but in the interests of scientific debate, (of which critical evaluation is a vital part), we need to consider what is possible within the LHC.

One thing I'm very interested about is the kinds of group particles collision interactions that are possible.

For example, imagine two cars driving head on into each other while both are travelling at say 100 Mph ... and you get to see the collision in slow motion video from a side on (say 10 metres away) perspective. Now imagine watching the video as the two cars first start to crush and crumple up into each other, as they get squashed together and torn apart by the collision. Now imagine as these two cars are mostly though the process of crushing together and getting torn apart, that a 3rd car then slams into the back of one of the cars. (Or another two car collision occurs at the side of them and their debris is spraying into each other debris).

If this was a particle accelerator and the cars were particles, then the detectors would most likely pick-up an interesting (but less frequently occurring) collision.

The frequency of this kind of group interaction is less than simpler two particle collisions, however its not impossible. So you end up with showers of debris and occasionally we my see something very interesting in the debris. That "something very interesting" event could be caused by these kinds of rarely occurring types of group collisions. And don't forget that the extra (3rd or more) "cars" don't need to hit the first two "cars" ... their debris can hit other debris etc..

So what if something dangerous was formed in one of these rare showers of group collisions?

Also the whole point of particle accelerators is the beams are designed to focus into a small an area as possible, to maximise the chances of collisions. That works for single collisions, but what about group collisions?

Also Hawking radiation is not 100% proven as fact ... its still currently a theory and holes in that theory have been already suggested.

Also the lifespan of a black hole is very likely to be dependent upon its mass, which means a group collision is very likely to exist for longer than a simple collision

A rare group collision merger only needs to exist long enough for it to impact onto some solid part of the machine, for us to be in a potentially very dangerous situation. We are then left hoping that as it impacts, it cannot merge with any else. But if it can merge, then we have the risk of a self-sustaining reaction of continuing mergers, regardless of even if Hawking radiation is proven correct.

Group collision mergers have not been considered for the LHC and we cannot predict with 100% safety all possible interactions.

A particle accelerator is in some ways a blunt instrument when it comes to controlling the exact interactions. We cannot prevent group collision mergers and at ever greater energies, group collision mergers are likely to become more common and more varied.

[WXyzzzzz]

Man's technology has exceeded his grasp. - 'The World is not Enough'
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka 'God') Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless EXPERIMENTS to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." This stunning admission is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing.' you could not be more wrong. Some people think the same thing about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: "A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals." The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."